Speaker knockoffs

Robh3606 · Mar 28, 2013

a] Can a DIY hobbyist duplicate the sound of an expensive speaker?

Easilly providing you have the right information. If you can get the drivers and a detailed schematic all you need to do then is copy the cabinet. People build clones all the time. There is a big market in JBL Vintage Large format monitors from the 70's to early 80's. Over on Lansing Heritage we have had literally dozens of these systems cloned in both the US, Japan and Europe. I have a cloned pair of 4344's I built about 8 years ago. The biggest issue now is the availability of cone kits. Up to several years ago most of these were readily available so you could purchase driver cores and have them reconed. You would end up with essentially a brand spanking new speaker. That what I did with my 4344's all the drivers were fresh recones and not 30 year old originals. Now those kits are drying up.

Rob

Speedskater · Mar 28, 2013

The rapidly changing considerations for DIYing are cost and availability. Many favorite speaker drivers are no longer manufactured others are seeing rising prices. Same goes for passive crossover components, in fact some small shops are switching to DSP active crossovers. Then there is the cost of new woodshop tools and the cost of high quality wood. Lets not forget the higher delivery and processing costs. Finally how much is your time worth?

For instance the Orion & Pluto kits cost way more than a decade ago and have some parts that are now difficult to obtain.

Whatmore · Mar 28, 2013

Gregadd said:
With all due defference to my own premise I NEVER INTENDED TO DUPLICATE cARVER'S METHODOLOGY OR RESULTS. The Carver reference is an anlogy.

Only to say can we do the same for more or less

With respect, it was your analogy so please don't shout at me for using it

TJE · Mar 28, 2013

There is an implicit assumption here that uber expensive speakers have exemplary sound quality, and furthermore that if someone were to achieve similar sound quality with a knock-off speaker, it should sell itself based on performance. Neither assumption is necessarily valid. As for the first, Jeff Fritz has been bold enough to express disappointment in the performance of some high priced speakers. In some cases it seems a manufacturer will ask breathtaking high prices in the hope that buyers will assume the quality matches the price. As for the second assumption--that genuine high performance should automatically earn sales--I feel sure there are many examples of great performers that get overlooked due to weak marketing or inability by the manufacturer to create an aura of prestige. It's easier to make that case about something more subtle than a speaker, say a DAC that might objectively (dare I say) perform at the level of a far more expensive component but never attracts attention or accolades in the mainstream for lack of brand identity or marketing dollars.

Gregadd · Mar 29, 2013

Every speaker has a sonic signature.

JackD201 · Mar 29, 2013

Speedskater said:
The rapidly changing considerations for DIYing are cost and availability. Many favorite speaker drivers are no longer manufactured others are seeing rising prices. Same goes for passive crossover components, in fact some small shops are switching to DSP active crossovers. Then there is the cost of new woodshop tools and the cost of high quality wood. Lets not forget the higher delivery and processing costs. Finally how much is your time worth?

For instance the Orion & Pluto kits cost way more than a decade ago and have some parts that are now difficult to obtain.

I suppose copying or reverse engineering is easier than coming up with the successful original. Having said that, I buy because I simply cannot create as well and certainly cannot build as well either. It's the same reason I buy my clothes, my food, etc.

Duke LeJeune · Jul 27, 2013

Gregadd said:
The question is if Bob Carved can duplicate an amplifiers sound can we do the same with speakers?...

Without naming the company suppose I took home a $200k speaker. I noted that it was not covered by any major patents. I noted I could actually build a better speaker for half the.Brand name prestige notwithstanding could that be viable product?

I would not suggest cloning the product of a big company with Italian connections. You don't want Guido and Luigi paying you a visit and making you an offer you can't refuse.

Your competition may not be the $200k original speaker, nor other $100k speakers. It may well be the original $200k speaker going for $100k used on Audiogon. Will people prefer your clone over the real thing used?

Imperial · Aug 4, 2013

Gregadd said:
The question is if Bob Carved can duplicate an amplifiers sound can we do the same with speakers?
Many designers are introducing bigger and in imo unreasonably expensive speakers. Few,while clever designs,are the result of any patentable invention. One could imagine then with a good lab I capture a speakers sonic quality or lack thereof and duplicate it.
Returning to Bob Carver who copied an amps in a hotel room under severe time constraints. Imagine what one could do under calm reflection with financial backing.
I can't where I saw it but the relatively brisk sales of ultra space gear has caught the attention of major media.
Without naming the company suppose I took home a $200k speaker. I noted that it was not covered by any major patents. I noted I could actually build a better speaker for half the.Brand name prestige notwithstanding could that be viable product?

I think Danish TACT once during a demo of their room correction software suddenly stopped the demo, flipped one of the speakers upside down, switched cables, basically messed up the whole setup.
Did a re-compute...
Pushed play
and the system sounded the same... not a change at all. Compensated perfectly by the processor.

That's one demo I would have liked to be present at.
I'd call that a 'Carver moment if I can....

---

And what Bruce B mentions...
There are companies now, that If you have the money, will build you a replica of just about any speaker out there, sometimes beating the original something fierce.
I don't doubt that for a second that some DIY'ers, a select few are on par with the great names. Not a doubt.

Empirical · Aug 4, 2013

Gregadd said:
The question is if Bob Carved can duplicate an amplifiers sound can we do the same with speakers?
Many designers are introducing bigger and in imo unreasonably expensive speakers. Few,while clever designs,are the result of any patentable invention. One could imagine then with a good lab I capture a speakers sonic quality or lack thereof and duplicate it.
Returning to Bob Carver who copied an amps in a hotel room under severe time constraints. Imagine what one could do under calm reflection with financial backing.
I can't where I saw it but the relatively brisk sales of ultra space gear has caught the attention of major media.
Without naming the company suppose I took home a $200k speaker. I noted that it was not covered by any major patents. I noted I could actually build a better speaker for half the.Brand name prestige notwithstanding could that be viable product?

I don't take much stock in "brand name prestige". It's BS. I have had mugabux speakers in my rooms at many trade shows, including CES, RMAF and Newport. They may look pretty, but the engineering is usually lacking. I usually have to tweak them using EQ to compensate for poor crossover design. The crossovers typically use cheaper components because they are either cutting corners or are too stupid to understand the benefits of better inductors, capacitors and resistors. I have tried to convince some of these guys in the past and basically gave up.

The best course IME is to look to smaller companies that deliver even better sound than the "brand names", but sell direct and deliver more value for your money. Companies that dont spend all of their revenue on advertising and a marketing team. Companies like vaporsound.com (Vapor Audio). Their speakers beat everything I have tried in the past, including the top names in the industry. They utilize some of the best drivers you can get and the crossover components are top-notch. The designs measure so flat that they need no EQ. Great off-axis response too.

I have no economic link or conflict of interest with Vapor Audio.

Steve N.

cpp · Aug 20, 2013

Empirical said:
I don't take much stock in "brand name prestige". It's BS. I have had mugabux speakers in my rooms at many trade shows, including CES, RMAF and Newport. They may look pretty, but the engineering is usually lacking. I usually have to tweak them using EQ to compensate for poor crossover design. The crossovers typically use cheaper components because they are either cutting corners or are too stupid to understand the benefits of better inductors, capacitors and resistors. I have tried to convince some of these guys in the past and basically gave up.

The best course IME is to look to smaller companies that deliver even better sound than the "brand names", but sell direct and deliver more value for your money. Companies that dont spend all of their revenue on advertising and a marketing team. Companies like vaporsound.com (Vapor Audio). Their speakers beat everything I have tried in the past, including the top names in the industry. They utilize some of the best drivers you can get and the crossover components are top-notch. The designs measure so flat that they need no EQ. Great off-axis response too.

I have no economic link or conflict of interest with Vapor Audio.

Steve N.

Steve, I agree 100%. These mega-buck speaker companies selling speakers at outrageous prices is BS and they fit right in there with those people selling speaker cables for $1k for a 3meter cable. I think it all depends on how far to take the DIY definition. For instance you can say SALK, Selah Audio are DIY's making a pretty decent product, using well known drivers, good cabinet construction and they provide measurements UP FRONT not to mention excellent customer service and they sound pretty good, but how many top speaker companies even provide measurements on their website, few if any, makes you wonder what they are really hiding where a DIY'er has nothing to hide..

Empirical · Aug 20, 2013

cpp said:
Steve, I agree 100%. These mega-buck speaker companies selling speakers at outrageous prices is BS and they fit right in there with those people selling speaker cables for $1k for a 3meter cable. I think it all depends on how far to take the DIY definition. For instance you can say SALK, Selah Audio are DIY's making a pretty decent product, using well known drivers, good cabinet construction and they provide measurements UP FRONT not to mention excellent customer service and they sound pretty good, but how many top speaker companies even provide measurements on their website, few if any, makes you wonder what they are really hiding where a DIY'er has nothing to hide..

I've actually use the big Salk speakers in my room at one show. Also an excellent speaker.

IME Most speaker companies believe their own BS, particularly the saleforce and marketing guys.

Steve N.

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