Speaker knockoffs

Gregadd · Mar 25, 2013

The question is if Bob Carved can duplicate an amplifiers sound can we do the same with speakers?
Many designers are introducing bigger and in imo unreasonably expensive speakers. Few,while clever designs,are the result of any patentable invention. One could imagine then with a good lab I capture a speakers sonic quality or lack thereof and duplicate it.
Returning to Bob Carver who copied an amps in a hotel room under severe time constraints. Imagine what one could do under calm reflection with financial backing.
I can't where I saw it but the relatively brisk sales of ultra space gear has caught the attention of major media.
Without naming the company suppose I took home a $200k speaker. I noted that it was not covered by any major patents. I noted I could actually build a better speaker for half the.Brand name prestige notwithstanding could that be viable product?

Bruce B · Mar 25, 2013

Over on one of the DIY forums someone built a pair of B&W 800's that were indistinguishable from the real deal.

dafos · Mar 25, 2013

But I believe that project had the blessings of B&W who supplied the builder with the drivers. In fact, except for the Marian head, everything was in fact "copied" down to the layout of the crossover which used the same components. I think what Gregadd had in mind, and pls correct me if I'm wrong, is to duplicate a given speaker's performance using a different a design like what bob carver did when he replicated the sound of a pure tube amp using transistors. And I believe that with the time and resources used by that speaker builder/hobbyist, the price of his clone would effectively be close, if not even more than the 800d.

Robh3606 · Mar 25, 2013

That's an interesting question. My first concern would be how would you market it?? Say it's the same as brand X for half the cost?? Or would introduce it as something new that out performs other speakers in it's price class?? Stealing other peoples designs for profit isn't exactly a good business practice. It really doesn't matter if it's not patented it's still someone elses intelectual property that you don't have any right too.

I am a speaker cloner so I know it's possible. I even gotten help from the designer of systems I have cloned but that's for my own use and they were just fine with that. To do it you are going to have to spend some money, measurement software, crossover software, box software or take your prototypes and the original speakers to the NRC for a complete set of measurements. You are going to need a complete set of measurements on the originals as it is anyway so that may be the first thing you do. Chances are the manufacturer is not going to give them up if they even have a set.

For a definition of a complete measurement set lets just stick with what the NRC does for now in an anecholic chamber not gated in your livingroom. You may also want ETC and Waterfalls.

It's not that simple to make Knockoffs, you have to understand why the designer did what he did and where he cut his corners. It's takes quite a bit of work to get that down if you can and even more to end up with something that actually sounds like original system. To make something that is clearly better?? What's your definition of better?? Are you going to do any blind comparisons between the Brand X and your own?? In the DIY world nothing sounds as good as the last speaker you built so it's a really slippery slope doing comparisons sighted and on your own.

I hope you read and understand Tooles book becasue it will give you insight on how to accomplish your goal.

Rob

Gregadd · Mar 25, 2013

I'm not so much interested how as much as I am the result. With some very credible speaker manufacturers Avalon and Kharma pushing half million dollar mark knockoffs might produce some downward pressure on pricing.

Robh3606 · Mar 25, 2013

pushing half million dollar mark knockoffs might produce some downward pressure on pricing.

That sure would be nice but at that price range?? So we get 250K per pair. Even if I was the big winner in NJ I wouldn't spend that kind of money.

Rob

Gregadd · Mar 25, 2013

Suppose you could get an Alexia clone $20k?
whatsbestforum

Robh3606 · Mar 25, 2013

These are the specs off the Website, useless info.

Enclosure Type Woofer: (Rear Ported) X-Material
Enclosure Type Midrange: (Rear Vented) X-Material/S-material baffle
Enclosure Type Tweeter: (Sealed) X-Material
Woofers: 8 inches (20.32 cm)
10 inches (25.4 cm)

Midrange: 7 inches (17.78 cm)
Tweeter: 1 inch, Dome (2.54 cm)
Sensitivity: 90 dB @ 1W @ 1m @ 1k
Nominal Impedance: 4 ohms / minimum 2 ohms @ 80 Hz
Minimum Amplifier Power: 20 Watts per channel
Frequency Response: 20 Hz – 32 kHz +/- 3 dB
Overall Dimensions: Height: 53 1/4 inches (135.29 cm) w/spikes
Width: 15 1/4 inches (38.74 cm)
Depth: 21 1/8 inches (53.70 cm)

Approx. System Weight Per Channel: 256 lbs (116.12 kg)

What are you trying to do a real clone?? He has proprietary drivers so anything off the shelf won't be the same. Going for a sound alike?? With those published specs where do you start asside from the anecholic chamber??

Rob

Gregadd · Mar 25, 2013

Robh3606 said:
These are the specs off the Website, useless info.

For arguments sake let his say a "real clone."
How about a little reverse engineering for proprietary parts.

What are you trying to do a real clone?? He has proprietary drivers so anything off the shelf won't be the same. Going for a sound alike?? With those published specs where do you start asside from the anecholic chamber??

Rob

Ok

Robh3606 · Mar 25, 2013

Hello Gregadd

I am not trying to discourage you just pointing things out.

Rob

TJE · Mar 25, 2013

Gregg, you ask if cloning an esteemed high end speaker could produce a "viable product", and I think the answer is no. Even at 50% savings it would still be expensive, would still be targeted to high rollers, and they would prefer the original. However if you are talking about cloning a high end speaker for personal use as a DIY project, that's a different story. There are plenty of DIY speaker builders who specifically set out to clone a well known commercial speaker, and of course the cost can be far lower than buying the original (depending on the original design, materials, drivers, etc). But DIY builders and high-end buyers are different kinds of people.

If you're talking about a box made of MDF and costing tens or hundreds of thousands retail, then a DIY knockoff can save much more than 50%, more like 90%. Of course if you read the DIY forums you discover that successfully building such a thing turns out to be more difficult than you might imagine at the outset, even just to match the look. Even for a skilled craftsman, it's a major undertaking to find the right drivers and then design and build crossovers, and a clone is unlikely to perfectly match the original (although it might be better rather than worse). Many high end speakers are almost impossible to clone due to their materials / construction (Magico), geometry (Vivid) or unique proprietary drive units.

Gregadd · Mar 25, 2013

I am not suggesting it would be easy. Brand name is vital. There are many who be content. There is always someone who can do it for less'

Speedskater · Mar 25, 2013

Remember that Bob Carver used very different technology to build an amplifier with the same transfer function. It was a much lower cost technology. He was selling a very different product with a similar sound.

To duplicate a loud speaker you will need the same drivers and a similar enclosure. You would need to buy drivers in large lots and need a production line to build enclosures. And you won't have a unique product to sell.

Besides speakers are all about marketing not design.

Gregadd · Mar 25, 2013

Do it yourself projects were done by experienced guys with their own shop .

Gregadd · Mar 27, 2013

There is a sign in my neighborhood in front of a store that only sells expensive vacuum cleaners that reads,"Only a rich man can afford poor quality." I wonder who it is that can afford a "white elephant?"

Whatmore · Mar 27, 2013

Speedskater said:
Remember that Bob Carver used very different technology to build an amplifier with the same transfer function. It was a much lower cost technology. He was selling a very different product with a similar sound.

To duplicate a loud speaker you will need the same drivers and a similar enclosure. You would need to buy drivers in large lots and need a production line to build enclosures. And you won't have a unique product to sell.

Besides speakers are all about marketing not design.

Is there a speaker equivalent of carver's amp transfer function?

Whatmore · Mar 27, 2013

Whatmore said:
Is there a speaker equivalent of carver's amp transfer function?

Actually, to answer my own question and possibly the OP's...
Does this count?
http://smyth-research.com/

Gregadd · Mar 28, 2013

Whatmore said:
Is there a speaker equivalent of carver's amp transfer function?

With all due defference to my own premise I NEVER INTENDED TO DUPLICATE cARVER'S METHODOLOGY OR RESULTS. The Carver reference is an anlogy.

Only to say can we do the same for more or less

Speedskater · Mar 28, 2013

Is the question now:

a] Can a DIY hobbyist duplicate the sound of an expensive speaker?
b] Can a manufacture duplicate the sound of an expensive speaker, then sell it while making a profit?

Of course 'duplicate the sound' is rather undefined!

Gregadd · Mar 28, 2013

Speaker knockoffs

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