Reel to Reel choice for every day recording.

eugen_syd

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2010
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Hey people,

I joined THE TAPE PROJECT forum and read a lot about this TAPE PROJECT. Hmmm seems to be an very interesting concept, so perfect you can nearly smell BACH's sweat but I had something else in mind. I already own over 2000 tapes and I wanted a reel to reel to produce best quality tapes which I can play on any reel to reel. Most of my recordings are on 10-1/2" tapes with 7-1/2ips (19cm/s). On 7" we normaly record on 3-3/4ips (9.5cm/s). So all was pretty much set to these speeds and to be efficient in 1/4 track (play both sides). Huh, what machine do I choose????
I had 3 x B77 doing this but I was not quite happy with the results. I alwas loved this REVOX C270 which I had for nearly 5 years but never used as was 1/2 track and 7.5 - 15ips.
So that is it, that is the machine and this is the project. The machine I had was an IEC machine set up 7-1/2 and 15ips, 1/2 track machine. Yes already a TAPE PROJECT machine but, who is prepared to spend over $300.00 to but his first tape or better say $1800.00USD for a subscription and wait until you get your tapes. They might even get damaget in transit and you will not know so I gave the TAPE PROJECT a miss so far. Maybe I will put it on my "BUCKET LIST".
Biggest problem I had was change of heads. E-bay offered me a set of 1/4 track heads for just over 275.00 EURO from REVOX.DE. Bought them but still a problem....alignment.
With help of the TAPE PROJECT FORUM I found John French from JRF Magnetic Sciences in New Jersey which aftewr a couple e-mails and one phone call I decided to put my destiny in his hands. Send him my head block together with another 2 B77 head block for reconditioning.
Unfortunatly the heads from Germany were not quite up to standard, reconditioned of cource.
John came out with a solution pretty good. I trust him 110%.
When it arrived I started to assembly. I discovered that my capstan control board has a few problems.... Found in e-bay a brand new board for $US 180.00 from IRINCO. Also purchased a new lower board BRAND NEW. Hmmm pulling machine appart was another mission.
All done but now comes the time for electrical alignments. Had all equipment necessary but manual is calling for an extension cable set for C270. No one has them, everybody says " I made my own" so I have to make my own too. If you do not know, main board of C270 has 19 connectors. I did not had to do all of them but done lots and lots. Finaly the speed was adjusted and all boards back in.
Doing the input and output calibration was another mission. Hmmm sounded so simple in instructions...but hard to achieve. Maybe in German language is more obvious(that will be the next step to learn I guess). So much dependent on your DIP SWITCH settings. Because I choose NAB equalization had to be +4DB which I found a little bit high as my B77 been adjusted to 0DB(0.775mV output). Obviously on C270 Willi Studer had a totaly different thinking. At the end I stuck to the instructions as every time I tried to be creative all tuned in a desaster zone.

This Sunday I called the project done and made some recodings from MP3 (my computer). Played them for a friend which "HATES" reel to reels as been such obsolete things. His words were that HE NEVER HEARD ANYTHING LIKE THIS! So I guess is pretty well worthwhile.

Now what is the next project????
Let is to your comments and questions if you have any.
From down under,
Eugen
 

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stellavox

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2010
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Eugen,

I happen to be in Portland, OR visiting Rich, a friend who happens to have a C270. It had a bad playback head which we've replaced with a Nortronics. Going to listen to it through the King/Cello electronics I brought along. Will let you know how the combo works out.

Charles
 

eugen_syd

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2010
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0
351
Hi Charles,

Please let me know. There still is a path back!

Eugen
 
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stellavox

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2010
284
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1,583
Hey Eugen,

I'm back from my sojourn out West and have a few comments - on your C270 and your thread heading - "Reel to reel for everyday RECORDING" (emphasis added).

Firstly, the 270 with a Nortronics head sounded unbelievable thru the C/K preamp - especially at Ki Choi's. More about that in a separate post to follow under the topic "C/K repro for my Studer"

Now to the RECORDING portion of your original thread title. I'd opine that the reason this analog tape wave is cresting has all to do with PLAYBACK - wringing the last ounce of "fidelity", not from LP groves, but from magnetic domains someone else already jiggled onto a tape.

Who cares about recording and why should he/she? Well some of us might want to make copies of other tapes or LP's - some kooks might even want to go so far as to try their hand at "live" recordings: God love them - I've tried, but to date mostly failed (miserably). If you want to, this "direction" should influence the choice of machine(s) you might look to acquire. If you want to do live recordings, lugging around an A80 doesn't make much sense, unless you already employ an army of Sherpas. Nagra and Stellavox come to mind here. For dubbing back home I'd suggest some "all-out" playback machine and a second "reasonable" sounding machine for recording.

Some thoughts about playback and recording. As you should know from reading my posts, I'm convinced that the major sonic failing in most all recorders is in their "stock" electronics. For playback this can be "ameliorated" through outboard or "second party" units.

Regarding recording, I have yet to have (taken) the opportunity to compare "record sonics" between machines. This is not straightforward, as you can't necessarily monitor the recording on the same deck unless the playback electronics have been "optimized", so you'd have to shuffle tape just recorded between a "candidate" record machine and a modified playback unit. I, and others, have found that certain recorders do much better at recording than playback. Something to look into in my/your spare time - and please share any findings with us

Charles
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I have made lots of recordings on my Otari MX-55 and IMO it makes extremely good recordings. Playback through my Ampex 350s is also outstanding.

Mark
 

rrr

New Member
May 17, 2010
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"This Sunday I called the project done and made some recodings from MP3 (my computer)."

What was this intended to accomplish?
 

eugen_syd

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2010
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351
rrr,

To produce some nice recorded tapes I can listen to, mixed the way I want them. Makes sense?
 
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rrr

New Member
May 17, 2010
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If they files are already in MP3 format you can mix them the way you want to and play them on the computer without going to the trouble of transferring them to tape. That is the big advantage of MP3's and computers. Most people use Reel to Reel tape to produce sound that is superior to MP3 quality which is quite low compared to Reel to Reel Tape and transferring an MP3 to tape does not improve the quality of the media; it can never be better than it is as an MP3.
 

tony ky ma

Industry Expert
Aug 21, 2010
630
5
930
Whitby Ontario Canada
Hi Eugen
I started a thread in diy audio.com talking if you have no more rooms to up grade your system, than try to create your own master tape for supper sound quality with a Studer A80, but end up with arguing in digital or analog recording, in my experience, recorder is just one of the main issue, mic and mic pre amp also another, mic cable interconnect cable even power cord will provide different quality sound. one more most thing is the room, too much to learn. here some pictures show the system in use, Royer tube mic, home made tube pre amp silver mic cable, silver interconnect cable all home made
tony ma
 

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RogerD

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May 23, 2010
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Hello Tony,
Can you post a .wav file would like to hear your setup, very impressive.The 300B dual mono? mic pre must be very liquid and warm as the 300B is my favorite.
The piano in that expansive space ....wow.
 

tony ky ma

Industry Expert
Aug 21, 2010
630
5
930
Whitby Ontario Canada
Hello Tony,
Can you post a .wav file would like to hear your setup, very impressive.The 300B dual mono? mic pre must be very liquid and warm as the 300B is my favorite.
The piano in that expansive space ....wow.

Hi Roger
Sorry my computer knowledge is very poor, I don't know how to post a wav file, the pool side for recording are not my house, my partner's home. and the pool full of water or without water will have different recording sound quality .300B use in pre amp has a lot of noise even WE 300B (because of direct heating ), not every tube is quiet , we had tried and pick up from more than 10 pcs, I am working on a Studer A80's record amp, modify two stages to tube, when it done ,will start make copies (we have two A80) listen to the copy will much better than from computer, be patient
 

c1ferrari

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 15, 2010
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Hi Eugen
I started a thread in diy audio.com talking if you have no more rooms to up grade your system, than try to create your own master tape for supper sound quality with a Studer A80, but end up with arguing in digital or analog recording, in my experience, recorder is just one of the main issue, mic and mic pre amp also another, mic cable interconnect cable even power cord will provide different quality sound. one more most thing is the room, too much to learn. here some pictures show the system in use, Royer tube mic, home made tube pre amp silver mic cable, silver interconnect cable all home made
tony ma

Wait - let me get this right...you're recording this fine acoustic instrument in this space with your A80? Awesome! I began my quest comtemplating something similar, until it became abundantly apparent that an A820 is not a field recorder - LOL. I've revised my estimate with a Nagra in tow...I think it will be great fun, but I'm prepared for some sonic disappointment, too.

Tony - any relation to Winston?
 

tony ky ma

Industry Expert
Aug 21, 2010
630
5
930
Whitby Ontario Canada
Wait - let me get this right...you're recording this fine acoustic instrument in this space with your A80? Awesome! I began my quest comtemplating something similar, until it became abundantly apparent that an A820 is not a field recorder - LOL. I've revised my estimate with a Nagra in tow...I think it will be great fun, but I'm prepared for some sonic disappointment, too.

Tony - any relation to Winston?
Hi Sam
I don't know Winston is he in Toronto ?
I don't know about A820 well , I only taugch A77 PR99 A80 A810, all I know A820 is better than A810 but simular too many ICs, still A80 is the better one amount those I suppose. no one can tell what will be untill it tried, too many things can effect the sound quality,but there is fun in trying
tony ma
 

c1ferrari

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 15, 2010
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Hi Sam
I don't know Winston is he in Toronto ?
I don't know about A820 well , I only taugch A77 PR99 A80 A810, all I know A820 is better than A810 but simular too many ICs, still A80 is the better one amount those I suppose. no one can tell what will be untill it tried, too many things can effect the sound quality,but there is fun in trying
tony ma

Hi Tony,

Winston Ma is associated with FIM (First Impression Music). Here is their website http://www.firstimpressionmusic.com/

Best,
Sam
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,587
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Hi Sam
I don't know Winston is he in Toronto ?
I don't know about A820 well , I only taugch A77 PR99 A80 A810, all I know A820 is better than A810 but simular too many ICs, still A80 is the better one amount those I suppose. no one can tell what will be untill it tried, too many things can effect the sound quality,but there is fun in trying
tony ma

hello Tony,

regarding A80 compared to A820.

Monday i had the honor to visit Ki Choi's wonderful RTR collection and listen to his A80 RC. we listened to it stock and also thru a Bottlehead (i think Eros). the A80 RC sounded very good thru it's stock output.....in my opinion a little better stock than my A820. we did not listen to Ki's A820 sitting next to the A80.

after listening at Ki's we went over to my place and listened to the A820 thru the King-Cello repro. obviously, my system and Ki's are totally different so any conclusions are not definitive. but the A820 thru the King-Cello was much better than the A80 stock.

my point is that when comparing these 2 wonderful RTR player's performance you are mostly comparing the output electronics.....and no doubt the A80 RC has the more forgiving and transparent output electronics (simpler, less poluted signal path). the likely small sonic advantage the A820 has in speed stability does not overcome the A80's advantage in the signal path. however; when you add better output electronics then the advantge (however slight) swings to the A820 (until you need to fix it).

if you want to keep everything stock the A80 is likely the one to get.

added note; Sam brings up Winston Ma; he is a local friend here in the Seattle area. he has very very 'golden' ears i might add.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,238
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New York City
Hi Sam
Winston Ma , same family name but no relationship, I heard his name before, CD Golden String's founder. but I am a analog guy not his fans
regard tony ma

Actually should be a fan :) Winston was one of the first championing the Tape Project 15 ips tapes and played them at CES in his room! He was in fact responsible for TTP getting the Decca releases they offered since Winston had them to make a digital K2 release. So he's been a big supporter of R2R tape and sure he has a R2R in his system-that I understand is quite spectacular. Perhaps if Bruce reads this he can comment more.
 

tony ky ma

Industry Expert
Aug 21, 2010
630
5
930
Whitby Ontario Canada
Hi Mike
Thank you for sharing the experience of the two Studers , I like to modify amps, parts don't charge by brand name, more you pay more you can get, I don't know the circuit of King-cello repro( active EQ or passive EQ ? any feed back ?) and what type of parts in use, if it can sound better than the stock mostly because of better parts in use, my dream circuit of repro amp ( I will do in future) is all tube, passive EQ, no feed back, all transformer coupling. I believe this one will provide the best sounding
tony ma
 
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tony ky ma

Industry Expert
Aug 21, 2010
630
5
930
Whitby Ontario Canada
Actually should be a fan :) Winston was one of the first championing the Tape Project 15 ips tapes and played them at CES in his room! He was in fact responsible for TTP getting the Decca releases they offered since Winston had them to make a digital K2 release. So he's been a big supporter of R2R tape and sure he has a R2R in his system-that I understand is quite spectacular. Perhaps if Bruce reads this he can comment more.

I am sorry, I only heard about his passed in Hong Kong, I don't know him now. Hay how about to ask him to make that The All Star Percussion Ensemble again in tape, I knew he made vinyl and CD before
 

RogerD

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May 23, 2010
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