Audiophile Fuses

I’ve never heard of anyone ever experiencing a fire or injury because of an audiophile fuse. Have you? As of several years ago the top 3 audiophile fuse companies total sales of fuses exceeded 100,000. No fires, no injuries.
Fuses on source components, typically 2A or lower, are there to protect the component. Some but not all amplifiers have fuses for their protection (my Luxman does not have a fuse). Here in the UK the law requires fuses in plugs to protect the plug and cable from overheating and catching fire. Those fuses are not intended to protect the component. A certified 13A UK fuse will allow 24.7A at 240v to flow for 30 minutes before blowing. I believe that aspect of safety is provided in the USA by the breaker in the consumer unit.

An audiophile low current fuse is really about protecting against component damage rather than a fire.

In the UK you can count the 13A plug fuses in the billions. Fires arise more from faulty wiring. Before our current regulations electrical fires were not uncommon, you'd often see burnt plugs.
 
I’ve never heard of anyone ever experiencing a fire or injury because of an audiophile fuse. Have you? As of several years ago the top 3 audiophile fuse companies total sales of fuses exceeded 100,000. No fires, no injuries.
In order to have the product certified the manufacturer must use certified equipment. The fuse is one of the most important pieces of safety equipment. If you replace it with an uncertified one you might as well remove it and insert a piece of wire. A fuse limits the current flow and allows the use of smaller wire and components. In the rare case of a fire caused by an uncertified fuse a diligent insurance company could refuse the claim.
 
In order to have the product certified the manufacturer must use certified equipment. The fuse is one of the most important pieces of safety equipment. If you replace it with an uncertified one you might as well remove it and insert a piece of wire. A fuse limits the current flow and allows the use of smaller wire and components. In the rare case of a fire caused by an uncertified fuse a diligent insurance company could refuse the claim.
Very few fuses require certification (such as UK safety fuses). In the old days we used to just use fuse wire and you can still buy it.
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Fuses from say 1A up do not limit current to any significant extent even under a full load, and do not heat up and increase resistance. It's a lie peddled by fuse sellers. Full specifications are available online from the likes of Littelfuse. You're talking a small fraction of 1% and most components operate at a small fraction of the fuse's full load. For example, a typical DAC with a 2A fuse would likely never draw more than 0.1A.

I've dealt with many electrical fire insurance claims and they are usually faulty installations or incorrect components. I like to refer to the destruction of one of the UK's largest motorway service stations caused by a faulty coffee machine.

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A house in our street, 150m from us, had an electrical fire about 2 or 3 years ago and caused around $1m of damage. The whole house burned down and took part of the next house as well. Someone nearly died from this fire.

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As I had stated earlier in this thread, I never could hear a real difference in AO Fuses, Purple, Orange, Green or Black... So I did try the Swiss Digital Fuse Box that is a circuit breaker and with this installed there was an audible difference. I have only installed on my amplification and preamp as my digital sources have the LessLoss 640X Firewalls installed. I do not think these are available yet for the EU??
 
As I had stated earlier in this thread, I never could hear a real difference in AO Fuses, Purple, Orange, Green or Black... So I did try the Swiss Digital Fuse Box that is a circuit breaker and with this installed there was an audible difference. I have only installed on my amplification and preamp as my digital sources have the LessLoss 640X Firewalls installed. I do not think these are available yet for the EU??
Never heard of LessLoss, but they seem to have sold plenty of product to customers in the EU and UK. Seems to have a very glossy website with very pretty product, but nothing explaining what is behind the products.

I pointed out to the promoter of the Swiss Digital Fuse Box that the fear factor promo on his website was technically incorrect (fuses don't heat up and increase in resistance in normal use). He sort of agreed and said the unit worked somehow, without any real explanation. It is not made in European or UK voltages. It's an electronic circuit breaker, not a fuse, and could not be used in a compliant UK system.
 
Never heard of LessLoss, but they seem to have sold plenty of product to customers in the EU and UK. Seems to have a very glossy website with very pretty product, but nothing explaining what is behind the products.

I pointed out to the promoter of the Swiss Digital Fuse Box that the fear factor promo on his website was technically incorrect (fuses don't heat up and increase in resistance in normal use). He sort of agreed and said the unit worked somehow, without any real explanation. It is not made in European or UK voltages. It's an electronic circuit breaker, not a fuse, and could not be used in a compliant UK system.
Okay Sure. Like I said it’s a circuit breaker….and not EU approved.
 
Okay Sure. Like I said it’s a circuit breaker….and not EU approved.
There's more to it than that. a circuit breaker is designed to trip extremely fast (about 0.003s) at 3 times rated current, so about 50A for a 16A MCB. The intention is to protect the circuit and appliances from a big overcurrent. Fuses have a completely different overcurrent profile, are designed to blow at 1.9 times current after 30 minutes. The intention is to protect the plug/cable from overheating.

So here in the UK it may be common to trip a breaker from a spike, overload or short-circuit, but the plug fuse will not blow.

The mystery about the Swiss Digital Fuse Box is the interruption profile. They just don't say, so you have no idea what it's doing.

 
There's more to it than that. a circuit breaker is designed to trip extremely fast (about 0.003s) at 3 times rated current, so about 50A for a 16A MCB. The intention is to protect the circuit and appliances from a big overcurrent. Fuses have a completely different overcurrent profile, are designed to blow at 1.9 times current after 30 minutes. The intention is to protect the plug/cable from overheating.

So here in the UK it may be common to trip a breaker from a spike, overload or short-circuit, but the plug fuse will not blow.

The mystery about the Swiss Digital Fuse Box is the interruption profile. They just don't say, so you have no idea what it's doing.

Sure okay. No more colored fuses form me. Time to move along….as I live in the US and no 13 amp fuses in any gear in my rack. Enjoy.
 
Sure okay. No more colored fuses form me. Time to move along….as I live in the US and no 13 amp fuses in any gear in my rack. Enjoy.
I've yet to come across any component manufacturers with much interest in aftermarket fuses. The last person I spoke to about this was Dr Sean Jacobs. They tend to use Littelfuse or Bussman. Just opened a LDA Quartz phono power supply sitting on the floor, it has a 1A fuse on the power input and a 315mA fuse on the output, both are unbranded glass fuses. Nick Gorham of LDA is one of the best audio engineers in the UK and if those fuses are good enough for him, they are good enough for me.
 
I've yet to come across any component manufacturers with much interest in aftermarket fuses. The last person I spoke to about this was Dr Sean Jacobs. They tend to use Littelfuse or Bussman. Just opened a LDA Quartz phono power supply sitting on the floor, it has a 1A fuse on the power input and a 315mA fuse on the output, both are unbranded glass fuses. Nick Gorham of LDA is one of the best audio engineers in the UK and if those fuses are good enough for him, they are good enough for me.
Let it go. I do not care about your engineer in the UK. I let my ears tell me what I like and what is good enough for me.
We had a saying in Chicago. The best in the West anint shite in the East. Enjoy your glass fuses. BYE!

@ssfas Reading your post I am sure we will never agree and I'm ok with that. I will take issue with a couple of things you said. First, you base your refutation of the viability of improving on fuse performance on the fact that fuses don't heat up at normal loads. This is true. Neither do resistors, capacitors, or inductors. but they influence sound. A fuse has to have a significant resistive load of it wouldn't heat up at specified current. We buy power cables the size of your wrist and then strain the electrons through a filiment the size of a human hair. Nope.

Second, I don't believe you understood mark correctly. He did not agree that his fuse box is snake oil. Not sure what you misinterpreted. I've talked to mark and he is very sharing of his technology with me because I am much more technical than the average user. He understands and believes in the technology behind it. I do too. I just would like to see a couple of more improvements. but it is 95% of the way there.
 
Let it go. I do not care about your engineer in the UK. I let my ears tell me what I like and what is good enough for me.
It’s best to not feed the trolls.
 
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I can't speak for Euope, but in the US, look your power cables over carefully. Look your power filters over. Look your amps and other gear over. Do you see a UL or other Nationally Recognized Testing Laoratory (NRTL ) mark on it. I bet you don't. That means if any one of them causes a fire, your as at jeopardy if someone tries to blame a fire on a aftermarket fuse. .
 
fuses don't heat up at normal loads. This is true. Neither do resistors, capacitors, or inductors. but they influence sound. A fuse has to have a significant resistive load of it wouldn't heat up at specified current.

Second, I don't believe you understood mark correctly. He did not agree that his fuse box is snake oil. Not sure what you misinterpreted. I've talked to mark and he is very sharing of his technology with me because I am much more technical than the average user. He understands and believes in the technology behind it. I do too. I just would like to see a couple of more improvements. but it is 95% of the way there.
Are you sure about your first comment. As I understand and experience, all electrical components heat up as current goes through them.

Per your later comment, I have thought on the idea of a CB vs fuse. I have hot rodded a panel to fast swap between a 20A hifi Supreme copper fuse and SqD CB. They were remarkably different.

Most all my equipment has a CB built into the IEC inlet. My amps are the only piece with fuses. I considered bypassing the fuse and using a 4A CB on the line feeding them. Just haven't gotten around to it. A simple din rail mounted SqD breaker in a box with the branch hot wire passing through only would work. But then I have to wonder if the slug in the fuse holder is coloring the sound. Lots to consider. I just tried a reasonably priced fuse with a better element and cap than a stock glass fuse. It did enough for me. I'm still wondering if it was really the fuse that changed over 200 to 300 hours, or something else. Like tubes or the amps passing about 600 hours of use. They are pretty new.
 
Are you sure about your first comment. As I understand and experience, all electrical components heat up as current goes through them.

Per your later comment, I have thought on the idea of a CB vs fuse. I have hot rodded a panel to fast swap between a 20A hifi Supreme copper fuse and SqD CB. They were remarkably different.

Most all my equipment has a CB built into the IEC inlet. My amps are the only piece with fuses. I considered bypassing the fuse and using a 4A CB on the line feeding them. Just haven't gotten around to it. A simple din rail mounted SqD breaker in a box with the branch hot wire passing through only would work. But then I have to wonder if the slug in the fuse holder is coloring the sound. Lots to consider. I just tried a reasonably priced fuse with a better element and cap than a stock glass fuse. It did enough for me. I'm still wondering if it was really the fuse that changed over 200 to 300 hours, or something else. Like tubes or the amps passing about 600 hours of use. They are pretty new.
Firstly, here in the UK we can use a full USA or EU electrical rig without 13A fuses everywhere, just one at the wall socket would keep insurers happy. Some people do that.

Fist sized cables are not necessary (I did briefly used fist-sized Shunyata) and fuses are not hair thin. I now use thin and floppy Puritan Ultimate power cables, as do plenty of people on this forum. My car charger cable carries a constant draw of 7kW, about 30A, over 35m for 8 hours - I've seen thicker audio power cables. The last 5m that plugs into the car is thinner than most audio power cables.

Here the standard ratings with minimal voltage drop are 2.5mm conductors for 20A and 4mm for 32A. Most audiophile power cables seem to be massively over-specified for their current, but I appreciate there are many other reasons for the design/size of audiophile power cables and many people think those reasons make a difference. I briefly went there myself, so I'm as guilty as the next person.

I once calculated that a Bussman 13A fuse (as used by QSA and many others) is 250 times thicker than a human hair. I have a few audiophile 13A fuses, from MCRU. They are compliant Bussman fuses with gold-plated caps for a better connection. Russ Andrews and HiFi Tuning do the same tweak. They are included in a a Supra cable kit.

I am not an engineer or electrician, but I am curious. First off I bought a couple of "2A" audiophile fuses and tried them in my streamer. I read up about fuses and they are far more complex and sophisticated devices that I ever imagined. The rated load is only the starting point. As we seem to agree, fuses and CB's have different jobs and operate differently. They are not interchangeable. I also recently spent about $25,000 having my house rewired, which involved replacing literally everything starting at the 3-phase supply under the street. I learned a lot from my electricians.

When trying audiophile fuses in my streamer, Innuos advised to replace 2A with 3.15A audiophile versions (from Synergistic). They told me that audiophile fuses are different, so they recommend a higher rating. That had me a little worried.

You can look up fuse data for yourself. The resistive load for fuses above about 1A is nominal. I once calculated that at full load on a 240V system a 13A fuse drops about 0.1V. There is a huge amount of data on the Littelfuse website, both of how fuses work and specifications for every product they make. They make audiophile fuses that are widely used by audio manufacturers.

My concern about the SwissFuse device is that it is an electronic contact breaker replacing a thermal fuse and there is nothing published to explain its performance characteristics.

The SF fear factor marketing is incorrect, but many audio companies do that, so I apologise if I picked them out. The issue I have is that the common concern for many audio tweaks is that they are a solution for a made up problem that doesn't exist.
 
I've yet to come across any component manufacturers with much interest in aftermarket fuses. The last person I spoke to about this was Dr Sean Jacobs. They tend to use Littelfuse or Bussman. Just opened a LDA Quartz phono power supply sitting on the floor, it has a 1A fuse on the power input and a 315mA fuse on the output, both are unbranded glass fuses. Nick Gorham of LDA is one of the best audio engineers in the UK and if those fuses are good enough for him, they are good enough for me.
It’s my opinion that electronics manufacturers are usually the last to get on board the fuse train, or the wire directionality train or the power cord train. Or even the isolation train. Who knows why?

Good is the enemy of great. Old Audiophile axiom
 
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Never heard of LessLoss, but they seem to have sold plenty of product to customers in the EU and UK. Seems to have a very glossy website with very pretty product, but nothing explaining what is behind the products.

I pointed out to the promoter of the Swiss Digital Fuse Box that the fear factor promo on his website was technically incorrect (fuses don't heat up and increase in resistance in normal use). He sort of agreed and said the unit worked somehow, without any real explanation. It is not made in European or UK voltages. It's an electronic circuit breaker, not a fuse, and could not be used in a compliant UK system.

You have to admit Lessloss Blackbody is very interesting, yes?

 
It’s my opinion that electronics manufacturers are usually the last to get on board the fuse train, or the wire directionality train or the power cord train. Or even the isolation train. Who knows why?

Good is the enemy of great. Old Audiophile axiom
Yet to come across one manufacturer with anything positive to say about fuse upgrades, although in the EU the Holo distributor markets with an optional fuse upgrade to SR Purple at a small discount.

Packaging a component with an expensive cable just bumps up the price. Devialet package with Audioquest NRG, so do PS Audio. Probably costs them $40 and a nice idea, even if they never get used. Here in the UK Naim and smaller companies like Vertere make some pretty serious power cables to accessorise their main product lines.

I do have to disagree in that many manufacturers are very conscious of isolation (both electrical and mechanical), and not just for turntables. Almost all of the components in my fairly modest system feature electrical and mechanical isolation. The Luxman L509X has far more shielding than many much more expensive products, and well designed feet, and the more recent Innuos products also have internal shielding and much improved feet. The RCM phono stages are made from tubular steel rather than a base with a lid on top, as it reduces vibrations. Rega have been big on vibration control for decades. I had a tube amplifier designed 20 years ago that had the tubes bedded on sorbothane pads.
 
Manufacturers never have anything positive to say about fuse upgrades because they never heard of them. Perhaps they didn’t get the memo. Perhaps they’re overly circuit focused. Who knows? And there don‘t seem to be very many turntables that come with high performance vibration isolation systems, oh, except for super expensive ones. I’m referring to sub 3 Hz vibration isolation, you know, like the Big Boys use.

Using more expensive power cords may indeed bump up the price, but I am contending manufacturers don’t know about high performance power cords or choose to ignore them, like they do for wire directionality and cryogenics.
 
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Are you sure about your first comment. As I understand and experience, all electrical components heat up as current goes through them.

Per your later comment, I have thought on the idea of a CB vs fuse. I have hot rodded a panel to fast swap between a 20A hifi Supreme copper fuse and SqD CB. They were remarkably different.

Most all my equipment has a CB built into the IEC inlet. My amps are the only piece with fuses. I considered bypassing the fuse and using a 4A CB on the line feeding them. Just haven't gotten around to it. A simple din rail mounted SqD breaker in a box with the branch hot wire passing through only would work. But then I have to wonder if the slug in the fuse holder is coloring the sound. Lots to consider. I just tried a reasonably priced fuse with a better element and cap than a stock glass fuse. It did enough for me. I'm still wondering if it was really the fuse that changed over 200 to 300 hours, or something else. Like tubes or the amps passing about 600 hours of use. They are pretty new.
That was cut from another thread for our trolly friend. Also I think Carlsbad is right in his assessments as an EE and a physicist. Everyone seems to be an armchair EE or Electrician around here. As a MSME it can be quite humorous at times.
 
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