Shunyata Grounding System

[SCAudiophile]

The tests for that setup here were short-lived; I did not hear a difference however, cables were short. If you are connecting the Altaira to the T2, I would leave it that way and not given worry about it at all. My current and final (what I purchased) setup is the following:

Zone 1:

Everest 8000 for my Esoteric Grandioso stack and Cybershaft master clock and Esoteric preamp with an Altaira SG-NR hub and Sigma ground cables all around for chassis ground connection to my Everest and Signal Ground connections from my components to Altaira SG hub #1. A Sigma Ground cable also connects post #7 on Altaira #1 to the Everest. Please note the Everest took the place of my Triton v3 & Typhon QR 2-box power conditioning stack that I used for over 4 years. The Everest was an audible jump over the 2-box stack and the chassis grounding alone on the Everest was markedly better than Triton v3 offered in that regard. I can only imagine adding an Altaira CG-NR to upgrade the chassis ground (beyond Everest) would be a further step up however budgets being what they are and the fact I have had to update 14+ ground cables from Delta or Alpha to Sigma after hearing what a demo Sigma could do, and buy another 7 ground cables in total for zone 1 and 2 combined, I have 24 ground cables here (chassis and signal) between 1.5m and four 6-meter, the wallet has run dry with all these upgrades.

Note that chassis ground for everything in Zone #1 is the Everest.

Zone 2:

A Typhon T2_30amp unit with 30-amp Shunyata-Amphenol twist-lock connector & large-gaude reference cable set instead of traditional power cord and IEC: this power unit filters all types of noise and also contains Shunyata's dynamic current delivery optimization. I power my Esoteric S-02 stereo amps from the duplex on the back of the T2_30amp unit. I also have a Shunyata Reference umbilical with Shunyata-Amphenol connector attached to the T2's output on the back connected to and feeding a Shunyata Venom PS8 power distributor block. The T2 through that distributor block provides power to my HDPlex LPSU and 2,250W of next-gen ICEdge amplifiers instead my Legacy Valor speakers (sub-bass, bass and SUT Array power is internal). The Esoteric S-02 stereo amps each power the midrange and top-end of the Valors. This combination of noise-filtering, differential noise-filtering, and common-mode noise-filtering (same tech as in the 20-amp Typhon T2) provides a great solution for my amps, powered speakers and LPSU. The HDPlex powers my Legacy Wavelet v2 Room Correction and Active Crossover processor.

Zone2 also has its own Altaira SG-NR hub. Post #7 is connected to the ground post on the Typhon T2 30 amp unit. The Typhon T2 ground post is then tied in to the Everest.

Note that for now, the Esoteric Amps and preamp in front of the room with the speakers are chassis ground (long cables) back to the Everest until I can afford an Altaira Chassis Ground unit. (FYI, The HDPlex and Legacy Valors have no chassis ground attach points).

This would be easier to picture with a diagram but I've not drawn one up yet. The sonic results for me have been upgraded more than I'd hoped and I am very happy. No fancy audiophile / reviewer hyperbole; the musical aspects of the system, dynamics and everything are smply much more enjoyable and great deal better.

 

[Zeotrope]

Wow! Quite a system you have built!

A couple of questions:
- “Post #7 is connected to the ground post on the Typhon T2 30 amp unit. The Typhon T2 ground post is then tied in to the Everest.”
Why are you tying the ground to the Everest? Isn’t the T2 connected to the AC wall outlet?
- “Note that for now, the Esoteric Amps and preamp in front of the room with the speakers are chassis ground (long cables) back to the Everest until I can afford an Altaira Chassis Ground unit.”
The Altaira Signal Hub is best here as you’re not connecting sources and amps to the same Hub.

I have 3 Altaira Signal Hubs, 10(?) Omega ground cables, 1 Typhon T2, and 4 Denali v2 in my system. I have communicated directly with Shunyata extensively to understand the way the components should be connected (although they always recommend trying out different setups)

 

[SCAudiophile]

Thank you....and to you as well from what I see in your profile and what you've just written here!

It might be useful to know that my entire system is on a single 20-amp circuit.

I tie the T2_30amp to the Everest so that I have all chassis ground connections in to one point and that point (Everest) then connects to the wall.
I suppose it is no less "correct" to skip that and keep with what you suggest given the entire setup is on one 20-amp circuit. If I had multiple dedicated circuits and the Everest were on one and the T2 on the other, I would definitely not tie the T2 into the chassis ground point on the Everest.

For my current setup, I've tested both ways and don't hear any audible benefit one way or the other. It costs me an extra long ground cable to tie the T2 to the Everest; I can live with it...

Given the entire system is on one circuit and I don't have a printing machine for unlimited cash, when I do add an Altaira CG-NR hub to uplift the quality of the chassis ground filtering (beyond what Everest provides), it will be tethered to the Everest, then the Everest connected to the wall. I will then connect all chassis ground cables to that Altaira CG hub (including the T2 and Altaira for Zone2) and the CG hub to Everest.

"The Altaira Signal Hub is best here as you’re not connecting sources and amps to the same Hub."

I will offer an opinion that this is the not best reason the having Altaira signal ground hubs is best in my case or many similar cases.
My system has a digital front-end via the Esoteric Grandioso 4-box stack and further, has alot of other digital components in the
Legacy Audio Wavelet v2 (ADC, 24/192 DACs, 64-bit DSP) and speakers have digital amplification. While the Esoteric S-02 and C-02X
units have proven to not have much noise on the signal or chassis ground planes, I've found a large amount of audible through careful "one cable, one input or output at a time experimentation" with the Esoteric stack and Wavelet in particular by attacking the signal ground vector of performance. So, at least for this system, that is why I am satisfied for now with the chassis grouding provided by Everest and have put my cash into dual Altaira SG-NR hubs and finding all the right unused inputs or outputs on the Esoteric and Legacy gear including the Esoteric C-02X and S-02 amps where use of Altaira SG-NR provided any audible benefit.

During my time with a prototype for Altaira in late 2020 and through 2021, and many different cables I was fortunate enough to be asked to do much experimentation and give detailed listening impressions in my free time. Over that time, and the demo time with the Typhon T2 and other units prior to purchase I've arrived at what I think works/sounds best. This is for this system and is not meant to be prescriptive. (Just for the record, I am not affiliated or work for Shunyata or any other vendor and all I have today is owned as an end customer. I do like to help out when asked as I have alot of fun and learn aLOT through such endeavors.)

I do of course also chassis ground every component that has either a dedicated chassis ground attach lug or that tests out according to the prep sheets. For the record I've been a chassis ground user and fan going back about 15 years. The Shunyata approach and cables are far beyond what I used previously (Granite Audio Ground Zero & cables).

Hope this helps clarify...

 

[Zeotrope]

My only 2 cent suggestion is that since you are connecting one type of component (i.e., preamp and amp), then the Signal Hub will perform better than the Chassis Hub. This is per Shunyata. But if you’ve tried it with both Signal and Chassis and you find that the Chassis Hub is better, then that‘s different.

 

[Sampajanna]

This is all so so so confusing. And guys some of the advice you are giving is contradictory to the Shunyata materials, the YouTube interview and even my email exchange with Shunyata themselves where I was told to by a chassis box first and later a signal box to isolate digital. I am not complaining, as I know you are all so kind for spending your time here and trying to help us who are new to the idea. I’m just confused. Reading all the materials didn’t help. Should i star with a CG or SG if I plan on getting a second down the line?

 

[Zeotrope]

This is all so so so confusing. And guys some of the advice you are giving is contradictory to the Shunyata materials, the YouTube interview and even my email exchange with Shunyata themselves where I was told to by a chassis box first and later a signal box to isolate digital. I am not complaining, as I know you are all so kind for spending your time here and trying to help us who are new to the idea. I’m just confused. Reading all the materials didn’t help. Should i star with a CG or SG if I plan on getting a second down the line?

I agree it’s very confusing because of the names Shunyata chose: Signal and Chassis. These names have nothing to do with where you ground and what the Hubs do - only with which components you combine onto one hub.

If you mix sources and amps (or analog and digital) on one Hub, use the Chassis.
If you can separate components (eg, preamp and amp on one Hub), get the Signal. To reiterate: one or more amps connected via a chassis terminal should be on a Signal Hub!
You can mix components on a Signal Hub, nothing bad will happen. So if you plan to get more than one hub, get a Signal hub now and mix them.
Signal works better than Chassis (if you can keep the type of components separate).

That’s it. This came straight from Richard at Shunyata and it’s also in their literature (but not that clear).

 

[Sampajanna]

I agree it’s very confusing because of the names Shunyata chose: Signal and Chassis. These names have nothing to do with where you ground and what the Hubs do - only with which components you combine onto one hub.

If you mix sources and amps (or analog and digital) on one Hub, use the Chassis.
If you can separate components (eg, preamp and amp on one Hub), get the Signal. To reiterate: one or more amps connected via a chassis terminal should be on a Signal Hub!
You can mix components on a Signal Hub, nothing bad will happen. So if you plan to get more than one hub, get a Signal hub now and mix them.
Signal works better than Chassis (if you can keep the type of components separate).

That’s it. This came straight from Richard at Shunyata and it’s also in their literature (but not that clear).

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time. In the interview on YouTube, he states the opposite of this and goes on a long time about the differences of chassis vs. signal grounding. I will continue to study, think and then maybe just experiment. If what you say is true, they could fix this so easily by just stating plainly without uber-complicated diagrams and flow charts that read like Kafka novels (if yes to 4 visit 3a, if no go to box 37b, etc.). They could just say plainly: if you are only going to buy 1 get a CG; if you want more than one, get a SG. That seems to be what you are saying….

 

[Sampajanna]

In the Shunyata diagram for segmented grounding there is still a CG in the system:

 

[Zeotrope]

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time. In the interview on YouTube, he states the opposite of this and goes on a long time about the differences of chassis vs. signal grounding. I will continue to study, think and then maybe just experiment. If what you say is true, they could fix this so easily by just stating plainly without uber-complicated diagrams and flow charts that read like Kafka novels (if yes to 4 visit 3a, if no go to box 37b, etc.). They could just say plainly: if you are only going to buy 1 get a CG; if you want more than one, get a SG. That seems to be what you are saying….

It’s been a while since I’ve seen the YT video; but he’s talking about where to ground (I.e., the chassis or an input/output on a component), not whether to use a Signal or Chassis Hub. If in doubt, just email Shunyata directly (do not listen to you your dealer!). Richard will confirm what I’m saying,

 

[Zeotrope]

In the Shunyata diagram for segmented grounding there is still a CG in the system:

View attachment 120248

Yes, that’s right. Shunyata are saying that if you have a “[Mixture of] Components”, connect them to a single Chassis Hub.
Note that the two models of Hubs are Signal and Chassis - there is no such thing as a “Ground Hub” - more confusion!
Anyway, you can clearly see all “analog components” (for example, a preamp and an amp) should be connected to one Signal Hub.

 

[Sampajanna]

What does the third hub in the diagram represent/do?

 

[Zeotrope]

What does the third hub in the diagram represent/do?

You mean “Ground Hub C”? That must be the Chassis Hub, just with a labelling error. They are saying that a mixture of analog and digital components should be connected there (assuming there are no available terminals on Signal Hubs A and B).

 

[Sampajanna]

So, I could maybe just get a SG and connect my digital side, then wait and get another for the analogue ASAP? Or should I get a CG and connect everything then get a SG later and take the digital off the CG and put on the new SG. Maybe it would help to know what I am dealing with?

I have router and siwtch, both with LPS on a different plug/outlet.
Then I have 2 boxes of Statement server
I have horizon and also 2 ground cables from TP tube adapters (meaning 3 grounds from here)

Then analogue I have TT and phono

Front end is 2 mono amps….

That is all there is .(Using Horizon as pre atm). Currently. Everything is grounded to Everest (Except amps which aren’t currently grounded to anything)

 

[SCAudiophile]

My only 2 cent suggestion is that since you are connecting one type of component (i.e., preamp and amp), then the Signal Hub will perform better than the Chassis Hub. This is per Shunyata. But if you’ve tried it with both Signal and Chassis and you find that the Chassis Hub is better, then that‘s different.

Thanks....I do use Signal ground for its intended purpose, draining the higher frequencies of noise present in the signal domain. It is tuned specifically for the frequencies of noise found in the signal domain thanks to power supplies, opamps, DACs, DSPs, etc. This is per Shunyata and direct conversations with Caelin and Grant. It is also consistent with their documentation and the video. I am also attacking noise in the chassis (power domain) where components either have a specific grounding lug (all Esoteric gear does) or per the testing prep sheets, and alternative grounding point can be found (using a multi-meter). The noise in this domain is at lower frequencies than noise in the signal domain and that is what the Everest and Altaira CG-NR hub are tuned to drain most effectively. This is also per Shunyata.

 

[SCAudiophile]

You mean “Ground Hub C”? That must be the Chassis Hub, just with a labelling error. They are saying that a mixture of analog and digital components should be connected there (assuming there are no available terminals on Signal Hubs A and B).

Ground Hub C in that picture should read "Altaira CG-NR" (chassis ground hub) for clarity. In that picture it is provided not only a better grade of chassis grounding filtering but also more attach points. You'll note the Denali only has 1 (as does the Typhon T2 when present). My next step is to add this an Altaira CG-NR. Ground Hub C in the picture should not be utilized for signal grounding (it's not optimum as the CG-NR hubs are not tuned for the higher frequency signal domain noise; this is per Shunyata).

 

[SCAudiophile]

It’s been a while since I’ve seen the YT video; but he’s talking about where to ground (I.e., the chassis or an input/output on a component), not whether to use a Signal or Chassis Hub. If in doubt, just email Shunyata directly (do not listen to you your dealer!). Richard will confirm what I’m saying,

It's been a while for me as well since seeing the video so I just watched it again; you are definitely correct.

 

[Sampajanna]

You guys all contradict each other and all say “this is per shunyata.” They really need to fix their messaging on all this…. It is off-putting

 

[SCAudiophile]

This is all so so so confusing. And guys some of the advice you are giving is contradictory to the Shunyata materials, the YouTube interview and even my email exchange with Shunyata themselves where I was told to by a chassis box first and later a signal box to isolate digital. I am not complaining, as I know you are all so kind for spending your time here and trying to help us who are new to the idea. I’m just confused. Reading all the materials didn’t help. Should i star with a CG or SG if I plan on getting a second down the line?

The way my system is setup today was the result of multiple years of testing and planning and also reviewed & validated with Caelin and Grant. It may change in the future as more is learned by all involved.

This whole topic is confusing and the materials are very good; they are not however exhaustive, i.e. they don't cover every single configuration
and they do not cover every scenario and all the inner detail in writing. They are constantly looking for ways to improve them.

 

[SCAudiophile]

You guys all contradict each other and all say “this is per shunyata.” They really need to fix their messaging on all this…. It is off-putting

I will bow out then as I was trying to share my experience and help out, not confuse or complicate the situation. I'm sure if we share
the points where it's murky or contradictory, etc. with them , Shunyata will work to make it better (at least that's what I've seen).

I wish you all the best with your system as properly applying all of this brings excellent and very audible results. If you have a configuration
that was reviewed and planned and aligns with what you verified, then that is safest path.

 

[Sampajanna]

I dont want you or anyone to bow out. I think the more voices, the more we can get to the bottom of all this. It is confusing though. I emailed and invited Shunyata to come here themselves. Hope they do. I am very grateful for all the efforts of everyone in this thread. I also agree that Shunyata themselves are a great company and have been nothing but awesome to me. Aso, their products are superb. That is, in fact, the reason I decided to buy into the Altaira: so far all Shunyata uprgades in my system have been great!