Are amp, speaker, cable our only tone control

[Kingrex]

As my sources get better I start to notice they sound very similar. That got me thinking. If the raw material, the vinyl, tape, digital are from the same master, should the playback from each source be indistinguishable from one another. If so, does this mean the only tone control we have with an audio system is the amp/speaker pairing and the cables we build the system around.

 

[Folsom]

What makes you think digital and analog have the same mastering? That's actually fairly abnormal. Also phono preamps and DAC's share hardly anything in common... They inherently can't be perfectly anything, and certainly not similar.

 

[DaveC]

I agree the best components approach a similarity... maybe not indistinguishable, but very close and it's often hard to say exactly what kind of design the component is. For example the best amps are not obvious they are tube or SS, the best sources may have more that give them away but still converge on being very similar. If you make a good vinyl or tape rip to digital, they are often very hard to tell apart.

I think I've reached the point with my own components (speaker, pre and amp), where if you didn't have visuals you wouldn't be able to tell the system is a SET tube amp and horn speakers.

These days, I think cables may be more different than many components, but only because the design of cables and correlation with design to how they sound is not straightforward. But even then, over time Cardas is not as syrupy warm and Nordost isn't as bright and brittle.

 

[Kingrex]

In the good systems I listen too, digital, vinyl and tape are darn similar.

I did not say they have the same mastering. I said if they did. I do have a record you can not tell the vinyl from Qobuz stream. Probably mastered the same. 3 of us could not tell as the sources were switched on rhe fly which was which.

To me the amps and speakers seem to impact the voice of the whole much more than the source.

 

[Folsom]

To me that seems like a measure of a negative thing.

 

[Kingrex]

To me that seems like a measure of a negative thing.

Why

 

[Folsom]

It seems like that would mean you're getting the character of the stereo, not the album.

 

[Kingrex]

÷eeeer

 

[Kingrex]

It seems like that would mean you're getting the character of the stereo, not the album.

Are you saying my stereo should sound like yours and if it doesn't one of them is flawed.

 

[Folsom]

Are you saying my stereo should sound like yours and if it doesn't one of them is flawed.

Your stereo should sound how you want. I’m saying for me if albums don’t sound different then for me it’s a negative trait.

 

[Robh3606]

Your stereo should sound how you want. I’m saying for me if albums don’t sound different then for me it’s a negative trait.

Yes even track to track! And with multitrack especially the early ones if you can't hear the layered tracks things could be better.

Rob

 

[Kingrex]

You guys are not reading what I said and way off track. No where did I say sources sound the same. I said they are very similar. I do believe a lot of that has to do with the mastering as I do have one album that is indistinguishable from the stream. That is 1, as in One album.

If of course you have sources that are not close in sonic signature to each other, then you have a problem with your sources. Either the media or the equipment.

IMO, the amps and speakers set things apart. But I do appreciate where Dave is coming from. I still have reservations his horns and SET amps sound like Wilsons driven by Dagostino/Gryphon/Boulder. They may, but I would be sort of disappinted if that was the case.

 

[Alrainbow]

What makes you think digital and analog have the same mastering? That's actually fairly abnormal. Also phono preamps and DAC's share hardly anything in common... They inherently can't be perfectly anything, and certainly not similar.

Call me wrong but from what I have read any given analog master is not for both formats. Now don’t ask me why while I have some ideas. My source is from those who make given end products for us.

 

[Alrainbow]

In the good systems I listen too, digital, vinyl and tape are darn similar.

I did not say they have the same mastering. I said if they did. I do have a record you can not tell the vinyl from Qobuz stream. Probably mastered the same. 3 of us could not tell as the sources were switched on rhe fly which was which.

To me the amps and speakers seem to impact the voice of the whole much more than the source.

Rex each format has a given sound. If any given system makes various formats sound the same there is a bottle neck causing it. reg mastering each format has its own mastering needs

 

[Kingrex]

Rex each format has a given sound. If any given system makes various formats sound the same there is a bottle neck causing it. reg mastering each format has its own mastering needs

Sorry, I'm not feeling it. I feel a set of Magnepan 20.7 driven by AR Ref 250 compared to a Wilson/Dag system are tonally more different than a excellent sourced CD of Van Halen vs a 80s vinyl pressing on a good TT. The speaker amp combo should have far more impact to the overall sound. If it doesn't, something is wrong with the source. IMO. Come on. With the ongoing argument of vinyl vs digital and how far digital has come. How many argument end in a conversation about a blind test. Plenty of listeners have a hard time distinguishing which is which. More arguments end in someone preferring one to the other. But in the end, good digital is hard to distinguish from good vinyl. But every time you go to a show and listen to a variety of systems, its my belief its the amps and speakers that make each room so different.

 

[Solypsa]

I dare say that the transducers ( cart mic / speakers) have the largest spread of measurable variation. Yet we obsess over ethernet switches and interconnects.

 

[Kingrex]

I dare say that the transducers ( cart mic / speakers) have the largest spread of measurable variation. Yet we obsess over ethernet switches and interconnects.

That's a pretty good point Erik. Al's Infinite sound nothing like a Voxative single driver. Scale has a lot to do with it. And the amount of power from his ML33. But his ML33 may be fairly similar to a Boulder 2150.

The cart is an interesting point. You believe they are fairly varied in tone? I have no experience. I never put my Denon back on after the soundsmith rebuilt it.

The digital backbone (modem, router, switch) and what you do with them, is a level of fine tuning. But not addressing them can make digital harsh and unlistenable. As a total aside, I put a gigafoil in last week. It was a notable improvement. Oddly the sense of space and spread of music across the room is biggest with my digital now. Second my vinyl and last my tape.

I got my Black Shadow back from repair. Out of the box I was pretry disapointed. I could hardly tell them from my Casablanca. After a couple weeks of settling and breaking in they started to sing in an amazing way. Quite amazing amps up to pleasant daily listening levels. But as Ralph warned me, rhey have about 7 usable wstts. when I put on Neil Young My My Hey Hey ,the opening guitar was stunning, the but is when the band came in and I really turned it up, it totally ran out of steam. My speakers may be 96db ,but 2 x 15" paper cones per speaker is a hugh amount of mass to control.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Rex, the Black Shadows only good for 7W? No wonder my 101dB Zus were grainy on them in my 12000 cub m space.

 

[Kingrex]

Rex, the Black Shadows only good for 7W? No wonder my 101dB Zus were grainy on them in my 12000 cub m space.

I don't hear grain on mine. They are more clean and clear than I expected. And a wonderful tone. Just pushed, the dynamics completely collapse and it starts sounding like a blob of music. Or maybe I should say a blob of sound. Fortunately 90 plus % of the time I'm right in the happy volume level with music they recreate well. And my room is about 19 x 22 feet. My room is open to the rest of the house. Its a living room. I sit about 8 feet in front of them and they are spread about 8 feet.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Rex, I meant at high volume too. At lower levels very sweet indeed. But my room dims much more challenging than yours. An eye opener that you say 7W when they're specced to 27W.