A real brawl about Daniel Hertz M1 speakers at the Axpona show!

[DaveyF]

I'm sorry I clicked the link to read the discussion, which is typical of why I never visit the S-phile forum or read the comments. I don't need to listen to a guy with a Heinrich Himmler avatar calling people f-wits, no matter what he may have to say.

Rur, I agree with you. I want to make it clear to all that I do NOT endorse in any way the opinions or posts of that blog. Nonetheless, the reference to DW and his 'business practices' is interesting. The comments about Mark L are also interesting.
He seems to believe in the 'there's a sucker born every minute' rule. The unfortunate thing is that the high-end industry seems to be rife with 'hucksters' of the same ilk right now, as Frantz just posted.

BTW, i remember a few years back listening at an audio store to a new pair of Red Rose speakers....at the time they were being hyped as a special mini-monitor with advanced technology. At the listening session, my overall impression was that these speakers were basically over-priced junk. To my ears they were abrasive , thin and had little to offer even at a tenth their price. Soon after, there was a fairly damming review in the Abbo Sound and the nasty little things disappeared.

 

[terryj]

again, it only works due to the ignorance of the average audiophile. (they may read all the blurb in the mags, but really they know nothing)

MY speakers must be worth 100k!! (and they sound it, just between thee and me! haha)

I loved the post titled 'just like a bugatti' which lays out why my speakers are worth a hundred grand.

only a couple of quotes, which will both illustrate the ignorance of the audiophile, and show the 'power' of marketing blurb to the unknowing.

Most speaker cabinets are CNC machined MDF glued together by cabinet makers and sprayed with automotive paint then filled with Dacron.. Drivers are off the shelf Seas, Scan-Speak, Peerless..whatever..

Well, mine are not. They use PRO drivers which these do!! (cept for the tweeter, which is a morel) and what is more, mine are made of concrete. So definitely not MDF.

The drivers are proprietary, and the 18" woofer os 100Db sensitive ... good luck finding that. Proprietary, well dunno about that. We hear that all the time (they HAVE to say that, else we'd just go and buy it from madisound), anyway the 18 I use is 98 db sens, ...funnily enough the blurb from PHL says 'sensitivity sacrificed for sound quality'. Anyway, it took me no trouble to 'find that'.

The mid and horn are in a separately sealed internal enclosure. Sheesh, they ALL need to be!! (dunno about the horn, sounds like that would be sealed anyway). If you did NOT have a seperate encl;osure for each the pressure of the bass driver (forget that it is an 18, any bass driver) would blow the mid (or at least affect it adversely). Most tweeters are sealed, yet I guess you can turn it into a sales point ('Seperate chamber for the tweeter'...just don't mention that it is built that way)

MINE is a four way, in other words I have a seperate chamber for the upper bass AND the mid. Does that make it worth 120 k???

Just as a funny aside, I knew a guy (commercial) who built his speakers out of veneered MDF. When they veneer the mdf they need to veneer BOTH sides else the board will warp, ie you need to balance the stresses. Obv you use second grade veneer on the bad side.

How does marketing use this?? "Veneered inside and out'' hahaha. I mean it was true but WTF!?

The damping inside is natural sheeps wool, not poly fill. Heck, come over to australia and have a look at the stockpile of wool that could not be sold.

The back mounted crossover is in an independently sealed enclosure of its own and is completely removable without opening the speaker. Mine are active, use two deqx units, they are not even IN the cabinets!!

The crossover is mounted on a plate which has slots for airflow and cooling if someone decides to be playing at concert level. This prevents any drift or anomalies from a hot crossover. Does this imply it is a passive speaker?? Heck, mine are active. It is mentioned that they used four amps, maybe it is line level active?? If so, why mention the hot crossover??

And before I forget, is not something that costs 100 k supposed to look good? Why does it instead look like a ten dollar piece of tinsel?

Mine look fantastic.

 

[audioguy]

I heard this speaker at Axpona. When I saw they were placed up against a wall (the room was large enough that they did not need to be), I was doubtful.

After I listened to them, I was more taken by the nice high gloss black finish than the sound. Very dynamic but none more so than my $7000 per pair Seaton Catalysts. No sound stage depth or width.

I'm sure they will sell some to those who ?????

I keep saying I never cease to be amazed and I have not changed my mind. I never cease to be amazed.

 

[es347]

Pictures please Terry!

 

[terryj]

Pictures please Terry!

Aww man, I canna believe some people fell for it!! I wanted someone to ask that ya know haha. (just gagging, in case it came across the wrong way)

Ok then, here are some pics, and you tell me they are not the most gorgeous thing you have ever seen!

The bottom driver is a PHL 18, then a PHl ten and PHL 6.5, with a morel tweeter. I also run two maelstrom 18 subs (not pictured)


Hope they come up. (they did, sorry about the size) As you can 'see', there are two drivers (apart from the tweeter) that need to be in their own separate chamber. Not something I personally would have thought a sales point, but some do evidently.

I did mean to say a few generic things. The one thing that seems to be common amongst those who hear my system is along the lines of 'that is NOT a normal hi fi sound' or words to that effect.

Tho that could mean an insult, it usually means it sound completely different to *most* hi fi systems out there. (good or bad, at least very different).

that seems to be one of the take away observations of the Daniel Hertz speakers too.. what is it down to?? the pro drivers?? active?? the deqx?? all of the above, none??

Interesting that their use of pro drivers kinda elicits similar responses.

One thing I am pretty sure of, there is nothing that beats a damn good bass sound. He uses 18's, I use 18's...and everyone is blown out by my bass.

Hi fi systems just sound 'different', really hard to put a finger on it.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The only thing the $100,000 price tag tells me is how much utter contempt Levinson continues to have for his customers.

This is the same Mark Levinson who took some $200 (RETAIL!) Chinese-made integrated amplifiers, re-badged them under his Red Rose brand and tried selling them here in the US for $2,000 a pop.

I hope the son of a bitch ends up broke, living on the streets begging for change.

se

Whoa. Angry dude. He not only objects to the price of the speakers, but he seems to have his britches in one heck of a bunch over Levinson in general. It would be easy to dismiss the substance of the message because of the anger, but let's break it down...

This is the same Mark Levinson who took some $200 (RETAIL!) Chinese-made integrated amplifiers, re-badged them under his Red Rose brand and tried selling them here in the US for $2,000 a pop.

Is that true? Because if it is, anyone who fails to scrutinize any product he subsequently brings to market is being foolish. I would personally go as far as to look at everything he does subsequently with a jaundiced eye. Fool me once...

Slapping a few pro drivers in a conventional ported enclosure and asking $100,000 for a pair is nothing but contempt.

How about this one? Are they off-the-shelf pro drivers? Which drivers? What is their retail value? Is it a conventional ported enclosure or something very unique, that required extensive R&D? If angryman is right about this one too, what's left? Crossovers and cabinet? A defender says...

The speakers are made in the hundred year old Petrov piano factory in Prague by skilled artisans using hand selected hardwoods in the traditional instrument grade way..not an MDF box sprayed with automotive paint.

Cool. I like wood, and I love fine craftsmanship. And I adore fine stringed instruments. But what's the real value here? It seems the same factory that builds the very fine rectangular boxes for these $100,000 speakers will build you an entire concert grand piano for $125,000. Big boxes/concert grand piano. Not hard to guess where the value is there.

And of course none of this means the angry man is right. These Levinson's could have $50k crossovers in them. Or they could simply sound so fabulous that they are worth paying a massive margin to be one of the few to own them. But what all of this does mean, if all of the angry man's points are correct, is that he has some really good points. And that the likelihood that these speakers do not equal a sum many, many times greater than their parts is very high. But of course we have some very distinguished audiophiles and audiophile journalists who were blown away by these speakers and believe they are a good value, even a bargain. And we know those guys are never swayed by badge, appearance or price tag.

Caveat Emptor.

Tim

 

[es347]

And we know those guys are never swayed by badge, appearance or price tag....w/tongue firmly in cheek

 

[JasonI]

Eternally an optimist, I believe the internet allows for a better informed populace. The opposite may be true as well, with the plethora of mis and disinformation available for all to consume. But I believe that transparency and openness drive consumers to better products. People like Geddes, Danley, Seaton, Toole, and Olive; these are the stalwarts of openness in the community. After reading John Atkinson's measurements papers, I put him in the same crowd.

Good, innovative design shows itself and will stand up to scrutiny. Perhaps the ML design will too, perhaps not. One thing is for certain, the internet is killing secret sauce and that's a good thing.

 

[es347]

..and speaking of $100K speakers....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/14/AR2007021401700.html

 

[Steve Williams]

..and speaking of $100K speakers....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/14/AR2007021401700.html

now that's cute Gavin

 

[Robh3606]

Just to clear up a point the speakers are biamped at 80 hz with active crossovers built into the amps There is a passive network for the transition between the 12 and the horn and whatever passive compensation is used for the compression driver and horn. So no $10,000 crossover there.

Rob

 

[garylkoh]

This is the same Mark Levinson who took some $200 (RETAIL!) Chinese-made integrated amplifiers, re-badged them under his Red Rose brand and tried selling them here in the US for $2,000 a pop.

Is that true? Because if it is, anyone who fails to scrutinize any product he subsequently brings to market is being foolish. I would personally go as far as to look at everything he does subsequently with a jaundiced eye. Fool me once...

Having been badly burnt by this (once), this may not be his fault. If ML worked with the Chinese factory on design and development, and have them make it for him, he might be paying them $200 a unit. Then it costs him $50 in logistics, packaging, nice glossy owner's manual, etc. With advertising, marketing, reviewer samples, etc. etc. and selling to dealers for $1,000, it will have an MSRP of $2,000. That's the reality of the cost of demo-ing and marketing a product - for higher volume, 5X cost to retail is normal. Lower volume may be 6x to 8x. For one-off custom, it may be 3.5x to 4x.

At the Chinese factory who made it for Red Rose, the parts and assembly labor costs $150. They don't have the investment in design and development, sometimes doesn't even write an owner's manual in grammatical English, and then sells it online for $200 with no demo, service or warranty.

The folks who have heard the Red Rose demo'ed buy a few of the $200 units online.

Now, the factory markets the product in China as "American designed high-end amplifiers" using glossy print ads showing the Red Rose, the $2,000 price tag and reviews in US magazine sells it from $250 in China and sells 1,000 units a month widely distributed with 7,500 retail locations.

Red Rose and their dealers in the meantime were left holding 100 units in stock and are now hurting. And we all think that Mark Levinson is the bad guy.

I'm not saying that's what happened. It's just a possible scenario based on personal experience.

 

[Mark Seaton]

Having been badly burnt by this (once), this may not be his fault. If ML worked with the Chinese factory on design and development, and have them make it for him, he might be paying them $200 a unit. Then it costs him $50 in logistics, packaging, nice glossy owner's manual, etc. With advertising, marketing, reviewer samples, etc. etc. and selling to dealers for $1,000, it will have an MSRP of $2,000. That's the reality of the cost of demo-ing and marketing a product - for higher volume, 5X cost to retail is normal. Lower volume may be 6x to 8x. For one-off custom, it may be 3.5x to 4x.

At the Chinese factory who made it for Red Rose, the parts and assembly labor costs $150. They don't have the investment in design and development, sometimes doesn't even write an owner's manual in grammatical English, and then sells it online for $200 with no demo, service or warranty.

The folks who have heard the Red Rose demo'ed buy a few of the $200 units online.

Now, the factory markets the product in China as "American designed high-end amplifiers" using glossy print ads showing the Red Rose, the $2,000 price tag and reviews in US magazine sells it from $250 in China and sells 1,000 units a month widely distributed with 7,500 retail locations.

Red Rose and their dealers in the meantime were left holding 100 units in stock and are now hurting. And we all think that Mark Levinson is the bad guy.

I'm not saying that's what happened. It's just a possible scenario based on personal experience.

One of the reasons we really need more electronics build houses in the US willing to work on smaller scales and shorter lead times to allow the required higher cost to be offset by the supply chain. My subwoofer amplifiers are now built almost entirely in the US, and there are a handful of shops doing just this as you certainly know, but I can only hope we'll see more companies trying to compete on quality and consistency. The market can easily handle the cost of such items, and the don't have to cost much more when the total supply chain and inventory is considered.

I do really wonder about the drivers ML is using as I'd bet the shiny bezels simply help conceal the identity and add some bling. The horn looks like something relatively off the shelf, turned sideways from more common usage. Honestly that's mind boggling on a $100k product, although you have to wonder if the marketing strategy is a $40k dealer price and big discounts to all those super special customers...

 

[FrantzM]

Gary

You may have a point. I don't know the particular of this Red Rose amplifier .. You are also being generous and a gentleman. if the factory sells the product retail for $200.. I would have though that any person that qualify ihim or herself as a reseller would have gotten it at much less ... say 80$ .. I will grant you that the reseller who brings such a product dealer cost to $1000 has made himself a serious deal ... let's be generous and label that capitalism .. some would have called it gouging if the product is the exact same as the one sold at $200 except for the badge and if No modification of circuitry was performed ... I know I would have

it remains that re-badging with no further modification than a nicer case and a logo, goes too often in the High End Audio Industry (seems that several Blu Ray players fall under such nomenclature). It is a fact. it is also a fact that for many products the price to performance ratio is low even when one factors the convenient notion of "preferences" .. One could go as far a saying that prices are out of whack in High End Audio Industry and that will be its undoing. For now Audiophiles are too happy paying whatever prices or trying to convince themselves that expensive component are indeed superior because of their price... The global marketplace will certainly bring a lot more of customers until these customers realize their expensive products is surpassed by much less dear gear and then believe me there will be a violent backlash ..call it punishment

When the notion of better performance comes up in the High End, the Industry has been saved by the new notion of "preferences" .. One that seem to exist on its own. As if ALL audiophiles do not unanimously admit that a Bose sound system sounds pretty bad ... which implies that there is a common performance metric as shown by the way by the works of people of our very own tonmeister or those of his colleagues at Harman Kardon Toole amongst them and others... We all know there is something wrong .. We may dither, accept it, heck buy all these overpriced items but once in a while, a product push several of us the wrong way and this speaker by the illustrious Mark (The Man) Levinson seems to have done just that ...

 

[Robh3606]

I do really wonder about the drivers ML is using as I'd bet the shiny bezels simply help conceal the identity and add some bling.

Hello Mark

My first thought was the the trim rings were used over stamped frame drivers. A cast frame is typically much more rigid and doesn't need any help as far as stifness is concerned. Also cannot see the VC wires on either driver. The horn looks old school like first generation CD, Manta Ray as an example.

Rob

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The global marketplace will certainly bring a lot more of customers until these customers realize their expensive products is surpassed by much less dear gear and then believe me there will be a violent backlash ..call it punishment

Now I think you're being generous and a gentleman, Frantz. Much (most?) of the prestigious "high-end" was surpassed by much less dear gear long ago, and the backlash is decades old, but far from violent. It is simply the quiet sound of the market folding into itself as the last generation of true believers ages and passes away. The shrinking market has been met, not with better products for less, but by expanding the margins the few remaining customers must pay to stay in the club. The shrinking of the "high-end" has been compensated for by the creation of the "ultra high-end," and by those who simply believe. They will not be moved by the superiority of much less dear gear, they will simply continue to deny any evidence that it is superior.

Tim

 

[mep]

The story goes that Levinson under his Red Rose brand name sourced an amp from a Chinese company name Korsun and rebadged it as the Red Rose Rosette amp. The Chinese version was around $200 and the one with the Red Rose badge was $2000. This story was all the rage when it broke many years ago. I have included one story from 2001:

August 3, 2001
Editor,
Recently, there has been some confusion about the new integrated amplifier, Rosette 1, offered by Red Rose Music and Mark Levinson. Many people believe that the Rosette 1 is identical to a Chinese-made integrated amp, the Korsun U2, which sells one-tenth of the price (to be exact, $2000 vs. $188). I think it is your responsibility to find out the truth. It is your responsibility to tell us if they are identical. If not, what are the differences?
In my opinion, this event could be the biggest scandal in the industry of high-end audio. If these two amps are identical or almost identical, what Mark Levinson has done is extremely unethical. It will greatly damage the confidence of consumers of high-end audio. Personally, I would also use your handling of this incident as my judgment to your professionalism. Please don't let me down.
...Jack Che-Ping Su
We can certainly look into it and see if we can get both units for review, and comparison, but there is no guarantee that either company will supply them....Marc Mickelson

 

[Tom Danley]

Ahh, Phelonious well put.
At some point, promoting a belief in a figurative “ naked emperor” can be key to bigger margins , a dollar spent promoting the image sells more than spending a dollar on R&D..
Mark, you are too kind, I am sure you see what I see or pretty much, even at 40K.

Tom Danley

 

[Steve Williams]

Now I think you're being generous and a gentleman, Frantz. Much (most?) of the prestigious "high-end" was surpassed by much less dear gear long ago, and the backlash is decades old, but far from violent. It is simply the quiet sound of the market folding into itself as the last generation of true believers ages and passes away. The shrinking market has been met, not with better products for less, but by expanding the margins the few remaining customers must pay to stay in the club. The shrinking of the "high-end" has been compensated for by the creation of the "ultra high-end," and by those who simply believe. They will not be moved by the superiority of much less dear gear, they will simply continue to deny any evidence that it is superior.

Tim

Tim

that is probably the best post I have read here in a long while.

 

[fas42]

Having been badly burnt by this (once), this may not be his fault. If ML worked with the Chinese factory on design and development, and have them make it for him, he might be paying them $200 a unit.
...

Now, the factory markets the product in China as "American designed high-end amplifiers" using glossy print ads showing the Red Rose, the $2,000 price tag and reviews in US magazine sells it from $250 in China and sells 1,000 units a month widely distributed with 7,500 retail locations.

Red Rose and their dealers in the meantime were left holding 100 units in stock and are now hurting. And we all think that Mark Levinson is the bad guy.

I'm not saying that's what happened. It's just a possible scenario based on personal experience.

Gary, it's still not clear to me from what people have said so far whether ML simply sourced a pre-existing unit, without input from him as regards design, or it is actually a true ML design commissioned by him. This makes a huge difference on how one interprets the end situation, so I for one would be curious what the story is here ...

Frank