Zero Distortion: More on restored Thorens 124

[bonzo75]

And yes I do like Lyra, GFS, etc, but the great thing in analog is that I can walk away with something cheaper that's good and resist something that's even better but more expensive. A lot of the good analog is satisfying enough to not to want to break barriers all the time except to find out for academic curiosity.

 

[bonzo75]

The one actual issue is - I think source set up changes if a panel or cone type system to a SET horn system. And most of my recent compares have been on the former, while I will likely end up on SET horn. That is where phono choice could change a lot based on the style of system

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, part of the bond that audiophiles feel, even if it appears like we’re all bickering all the time, is the pride of ownership, and even more so, the stripes we earn in going thru our fledgling system, to something better, to finally hit upon a system that really works for us, paying and wasting good cash along the way.
This is never more true than with analog, where there is a lot of joy to be had just punting on a choice, maxxing it out, maybe going to another, and if you’re lucky, like I’ve been, getting it right third or fourth time.
You should be a bit less risk averse, want to get stuck into vinyl on a day to day basis, and just get on with it, rather than endlessly musing in what could be, what works with what.
Just set a budget, pick the drive train you want, get something, immerse yourself in vinyl everyday, and maybe keep listening to more optimal solutions.
To do otherwise means you’re like the guy at the edge of the disco, drink in hand, perusing all the choice, and walking home knowing you’re not getting lucky tonight.

 

[bonzo75]

Ked, part of the bond that audiophiles feel, even if it appears like we’re all bickering all the time, is the pride of ownership, and even more so, the stripes we earn in going thru our fledgling system, to something better, to finally hit upon a system that really works for us, paying and wasting good cash along the way.
This is never more true than with analog, where there is a lot of joy to be had just punting on a choice, maxxing it out, maybe going to another, and if you’re lucky, like I’ve been, getting it right third or fourth time.
You should be a bit less risk averse, less driven by buyers remorse, want to get stuck into vinyl on a day to day basis, and just get on with it, rather than endlessly musing in what could be, what works with what.
Just set a budget, pick the drive train you want, get something, immerse yourself in vinyl everyday, and maybe keep listening to more optimal solutions.
To do otherwise means you’re like the guy at the edge of the disco, drink in hand, perusing all the choice, and walking home knowing you’re not getting lucky tonight.

Actually, the way I look at it is I am getting to sample all the women before deciding instead of dancing with one woman all night and making a mistake because of the intoxicated state, only to regret when I am sober.

Musing is part of the hobby. You should know. But I try to listen too.

Remorse always happens, hence the resales. When I chat with people, I find out they have owned speaker X in the past. I ask them, but did you not find X did these things wrong. They say yes, but that they realized it after a while and hence sold it. It is much easier to visit and find out and eliminate.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Of course it is.
And yes, I do muse a lot.
The hobby is audiowankery in lots of ways.
But you’ll struggle to convince anyone here that as an avowed fan of vinyl you don’t want to listen to the BlackStuff everyday.
With my tt down, I’ve had to patch in my old tt, or listen to vinyl in a system close by.
I can’t go thru a day wout vinyl.
But my situation is not of choice, whereas you’re choosing to delay choice of an analog front end by a factor of several years.
What so-called fan of lp does this? You may be the only one. Aren’t you feeling a bit lonely aspiring to being an authority on compares and data points while not indulging in the hobby day to day as the rest of us do?

 

[bonzo75]

No, not at all. You just can't be an authority on vinyl without spending ten years with various gear.

Do you see me posting about apogee or my chosen horns much, where I do feel like I know more?

I am just looking to learn on analog and have a shortlist. Maybe you feel like an authority on isolation and that's your thing. The thing that I am first to accept is how little I know of analog (Same is the case with many owners too)

My hobby is different from yours. It's sampling, which is a cheaper, and imo, more efficient method of swapping.

I indulge in live shows much more for my music kicks rather than bulld a half arsed system in a compromised space at the moment and listen to music which only the system is capable of playing. If you are so interested in listening to vinyl you should buy or listen to something else apart from your transfi salvation Marc.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Capital T, capital F, capital S.
Please Ked LOL.
Well, since I know of several guys who’ve swapped their modded 301s for it, and a v well versed listener who rates the Terminator over SME, Graham, AirLine and AirTangent, I’m content w my choice.
Until I’m not.

 

[bonzo75]

Capital T, capital F, capital S.
Please Ked LOL.
Well, since I know of several guys who’ve swapped their modded 301s for it, and a v well versed listener who rates the Terminator over SME, Graham, AirLine and AirTangent, I’m content w my choice.
Until I’m not.

Great, looks like you are an authority then. You should be since you are always confident about your vinyl set up without listening to others

I will tell you what I think I am the authority on. On helping someone do a tour to help their choice. If you want to listen to koetsufor example, go to Shakti. For 124 and PTP I mapped out a tour for you

When people ask me about panel and horns, after giving my preferences, I can draw up a 5 day tour in EU so that they can decide if horns or panels are there thing and which one. Thomas cook for hifi. So that you get to meet the authorities. Gian and the Italians you know.

Aside from that, if you want a recommendation from me to buy something. Well, Lampi.

 

[gilles13]

For lenco, which are totally rebuilt to get a flavour of high end, the plinth is the most important part. After tweaking a lenco with ptp4 base,I meet a man who had a massive aluminium plinth of 130 lb with a lot of tweaking inside and it was night and day with mine. He even loved the sound of his lenco better than his goldmund reference. So I bought him later the plinth as he wanted to built a true high end turntable. At the end he built a belt drive of 400 lb with a 220 volts engine for torque which is really incredible.

 

[Tango]

Great, looks like you are an authority then. You should be since you are always confident about your vinyl set up without listening to others

I hope you two are not neighbors .

 

[gilles13]

http://www.firstvoice-audio.com/album-photos/img-3512-1-4-1.html

 

[bonzo75]

I hope you two are not neighbors .

We lived in the same city, Marc then moved out

 

[ddk]

I don't disagree the process is flawed with turntables. But at the same time, I bet if you went to some random owners place, he would not have optimized it for ten turntables through his lifetime. People like you are rare. So I would counter that a better process is to find people twenty people who have optimized their own. I am quite sure there are many turntable who have never heard their table s properly. Many apogee and koetsu owners haven't heard their gear properly either. My Martin Logan sounded much better than a few others I heard, but not good enough for me, and now UK Paul's are sounding better than duettas.

By my process, I have shortlisted down to schopper with something like a kodo beat (having heard the sp10 mk2) in the longer term, or a restored Denon, let's see. Allnic (with certain valves only) and thoress phono stages for valves, burmester and FM 122 for SS. The others too expensive, and yes, used market matters. Especially in analog. A couple of others in there but I need to compare.

EMT, zyx, and etsuro urushi on the cartridge list, with EMT most attractive due to price. GFS, Opus, too expensive.

For someone who did not look at TTs at all two years ago, that is a good list. And I have during the journey felt compelled to buy some that I did not like later on hearing (mainly belts) luckily I have not had to be saddled with, then have the burden of trying to resale or forced to an upgrade. And this list could change in 6 months. The process allows for preferences to shift before they become biases. On DaveyF's recommendation I am hearing the upgraded lp12 soon. Thanks to Marc's musings, I heard the Blackstone next to a TD 124.

My main point was that you’ll benefit from some in home experience, you have access to a lot of resources that most including myself never had cwhich you can utilize to your advantage. I’m sure you leapfrogged at least a decade of tail chasing by visiting others but there’s also value to personal experience and getting your hands dirty even if it costs you a little money along the way.

david

 

[bonzo75]

My main point was that you’ll benefit from some in home experience, you have access to a lot of resources that most including myself never had cwhich you can utilize to your advantage. I’m sure you leapfrogged at least a decade of tail chasing by visiting others but there’s also value to personal experience and getting your hands dirty even if it costs you a little money along the way.

david

I agree. I will do that as soon as I sell my place off. Recent stamp duty hikes and brexit have made it much tougher.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tang, even though we’re now 100 miles apart, the joy of the Internet is I can still hear Ked as if he’s my noisy neighbour LOL.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hearing great initial reports from Audiophile Bill on his recently acquired SME30/2.
I’m summary, all the punch and verve he could want, with vanishingly low levels of noise.
All the music, no colouration.
Having heard several modded 301s and 401s over the years, plus living since 2012 w my direct rim drive (evolved from L75 idler), I know that noise/rumble is the idler’s Achilles heel. But they have verve to spare and get the tonal density/gestalt of the note spot on.
What Bill’s experience is maybe demonstrating is that only when you get to seriously overengineered belt drives like the bigger SMEs does one get it all: idler-like “in the moment” propulsion and superior belt related “ inner beauty”.

 

[bonzo75]

Hearing great initial reports from Audiophile Bill on his recently acquired SME30/2.
I’m summary, all the punch and verve he could want, with vanishingly low levels of noise.
All the music, no colouration.
Having heard several modded 301s and 401s over the years, plus living since 2012 w my direct rim drive (evolved from L75 idler), I know that noise/rumble is the idler’s Achilles heel. But they have verve to spare and get the tonal density/gestalt of the note spot on.
What Bill’s experience is maybe demonstrating is that only when you get to seriously overengineered belt drives like the bigger SMEs does one get it all: idler-like “in the moment” propulsion and superior belt related “ inner beauty”.

We will know for sure when he moves to a DD or keeps my schopper next to his in his system.

 

[microstrip]

(...) idler-like “in the moment” propulsion and superior belt related “ inner beauty”.

Or idler-like "speed-irregularities and motor noise" versus belt related " consistent drive and motor-noise freedom" ...

IMHO there are too many differences in the implementation to allow such generalizations.

BTW, SME 30's are not over engineered - I would say they are carefully optimized for performance, long term operation and user convenience.

 

[853guy]

For someone who did not look at TTs at all two years ago, that is a good list. And I have during the journey felt compelled to buy some that I did not like later on hearing (mainly belts) luckily I have not had to be saddled with, then have the burden of trying to resale or forced to an upgrade. And this list could change in 6 months. The process allows for preferences to shift before they become biases. On DaveyF's recommendation I am hearing the upgraded lp12 soon. Thanks to Marc's musings, I heard the Blackstone next to a TD 124.

Like I say, I've overcapitalised on hasty generalisations before, in which short-term infatuation lead to long-term losses, and fundamentally agree adding outliers is one of the best ways of ensuring outlay is recouped in long-term enjoyment. There are a couple of other turntable options I have short-listed other than more 301/401s, but I need to eek out time to go hear them, and I have very little of it right now (we are about to move for the ninth time in eight years - don't ask).

Given it costs me nothing to type these words but will cost you money in flights/accommodation/food, you could try hearing these:



http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=12384

Be well, Bonzo.

853guy

 

[microstrip]

(...) http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=12384 (...)

Quoted from the link above:

"(...) and it’s a very nice match to my Westminster Royal SE and vintage McIntosh based main music system."

I think that this just shows how careful we must be when addressing these vintage turntable. The opinions mostly refer how well they complement the systems (and the recordings being played).