Aqua Formula - settings new levels of R2R sonics and price performance

[spiritofmusic]

No problem w that Barry, one always has £15-20k free for those Herzans if the need arises
A mere pittance
Herzans would def add a third to an SGM and suitable dac budget

 

[spiritofmusic]

No, GG on 256 v Dac8 on 512, both on the SGM w HQP and Roon
Brief demo demonstrated to me that I preferred OVERALL the Dac8
The demo ended w discovery that GG was not at its best
No ones ever quite told me what the issue was
The Dac8 was clear winner on drive and rhythmn, the GG on tone density and timbre
I felt more excited and involved on the Dac8, for me that's what the high end is about, the desire to keep playing more music
Of the three of us, I felt this way, our host sat on the fence, and the other guest clearly felt the GG trounced the Dac8
I have no doubt the GG is stellar at 512
Whether it would beat the Dac8 on what I look for in digital, I have my doubts
I remain in a minority as someone yet to be convinced by GG and Lampi in general
For me that's fine, there are many ways to skin a cat, and Dac8 on SGM w unpowered Sablon Reserva Elite USB ticks a lot of my "digital converging on analog" tickboxes

 

[wisnon]

Fair enough Spirit. Personal tastes matter. I can tell you that with recent improvements on my GG, my upsampling desire has been cut. I will still do it for the full 512 experience, BUT not sure if its worth the hassle anymore.

However, just that you know this statement you made represents the feedback from most of my fellow Lampi owning pals:
I felt more excited and involved on the Dac8, for me that's what the high end is about, the desire to keep playing more music

 

[spiritofmusic]

Wisnon, this was far from a definitive a/b demo
I was in a bit of a rush, we only played a couple of tracks back to back btwn the dacs, the GG was "only" at 256, and in retrospect wasn't at it's best (although this wasn't discovered mid demo)
All I know is that when I hear a presentation that doesn't sound quite right, I really don't need to a/b it to death to confirm my suspicions
What I found fascinating was not so much that Rush "2112" was so poor on the GG, and it was, but that other more GG-friendly material like Saint Saens was better on the GG than the Dac8, but that the Dac8 was not v far behind
In other words, the GG couldn't hack it on challengingly flat mastered tracks like 70s prog rock, but the Dac8 made a brilliant fist of approximating the GG on material with a sympathetic acoustic and accurate timbre
And lest I be accused of bias since I've bigged up Dac8 on SGM online for a while now, I actually had generated a real anticipation that GG was going to walk it that day, esp based on Audiophile Bill's stellar reports first hand to me over time
Now, there is the possibility of reassessing GG on SGM in the near future, maybe Formula too, but my qs here pertain to whether Formula manages the magic of GG tone density and timbre, of Dac8 verve and speed, to produce maybe a hybrid musicality
Can it be all things to all listeners?
From my exposure to GG so far, it's not for me
But I'm open to being swayed

 

[CKKeung]

Tastes & systems do differs.
Several friends of mine in HK like DAC8 very much, when it is given DSD512 to decode.
On the contrary, another several friends and including me myself think that Totaldac, CH C1 and Aqua Formula are much better.

BTW my two DAC8 owner friends found that its mediocre IEC socket was a limiting factor.
Replacing it with a Furutech NCF IEC socket elevates the sonic performance quite significantly.
Before the replacement, they opined that a Holo Spring DAC (fed DSD512) performs similar to DAC8.
Worth trying but the warranty will be voided.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Can I ask those who've heard the Formula perform, esp via SGM, whether this density of tone is balanced by a real sense of propulsion and timing?
I ask because so much digital is impressive until you get to the "music making" bit, and lack of verve and energy makes the presentation a bit detached and bloodless
I also ask because I've been privileged to many times hear the T&A Dac8 on the SGM upscaled to dsd 512 on HQP, and the last 5% of tonal density and timbre loveliness it might lose out to eg GG, is more than compensated for by truly engaging verveiness, exemplary timing, and just a more joyous listening experience IMHO YMMV yada yada
And this has been maxxed another 30-50% (no exaggeration) by going from powered Sablon Reserva USB to unpowered Sablon Reserva Elite USB
For me at least, the interesting discussion, in the light of Mark's stellar unpowered Reserva Elite USB, would be Formula w standard powered USB on the SGM v Dac8 w the unquestionably superior unpowered USB on the SGM

I have the GG on the SGM with 512dsd, and for my particular system I prefer the Formula on the SGM. and as I mentioned above, the flow and energy of the Formula for the music is 'right' and not limited. I've been enjoying the electronic music on Tidal and the it really rocks on the big rig and I'd say the whole picture is more complete and more dynamically alive than on the GG. 'like' my vinyl if not in degrees. of course, the GG has it's attributes and it's very good in these areas too, you are just more aware of it's character. the Formula is just more synergistic for me. I miss nothing with the Formula in terms of tonal density. maybe someone else might not agree.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, my paradigm shifting moments came, one, when I shifted to Zu full range and high efficiency spkrs, and esp two, when the world of SETs amplification were revealed to me, esp the super synergy of Zu and NAT 211s
This has had a secondary benefit in my parallel search for horns, ie another avenue for potential dreamy synergy
I'm actually in discussion w Zu re possibility of being a second customer for a pair of their highly bespoke project horns, and another designer re buying a pair of his Vox Olympian-style horns or maybe if funds permit, his WE-based horns/field coil driver bass packages
However, despite my undying love of the NAT 211s, I've struggled to get on w tubes in phonos and digital
I do believe one can have too much of a good thing LOL
So, for me I'm happy to stick w tubes in my linestage and monos, but stick to SS for phono and dac
That's why Formula appeals more than GG
BUT...the unpowered Sablon Reserva Elite USB on the Dac8 took it's performance on so far and above the prev powered Reserva, that an argument could be made its more critical an upgrade than Dac8 to Formula, esp since latter has to use a pwrd USB
Mike, no kidding, the unpowered Sablon was of an order of magnitude as a major component change, esp in the area of natural warmth, timbre, and balance of transparency and density

 

[dctom]

No, GG on 256 v Dac8 on 512, both on the SGM w HQP and Roon
Brief demo demonstrated to me that I preferred OVERALL the Dac8
The demo ended w discovery that GG was not at its best
No ones ever quite told me what the issue was
The Dac8 was clear winner on drive and rhythmn, the GG on tone density and timbre
I felt more excited and involved on the Dac8, for me that's what the high end is about, the desire to keep playing more music
Of the three of us, I felt this way, our host sat on the fence, and the other guest clearly felt the GG trounced the Dac8
I have no doubt the GG is stellar at 512
Whether it would beat the Dac8 on what I look for in digital, I have my doubts
I remain in a minority as someone yet to be convinced by GG and Lampi in general
For me that's fine, there are many ways to skin a cat, and Dac8 on SGM w unpowered Sablon Reserva Elite USB ticks a lot of my "digital converging on analog" tickboxes

Hi Marc
when you listened to the GG was it in a valve system or SS?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Audiophile Bill runs the SS Analog Domain M75 integrated amp, a real beast, and Focal Utopias
He needs tube flavour in his sources to make up for lack of glowing tubes in his amps, for me the secret sauce is in my NATs SETs, too much sauce can be fattening, hence I prefer my phono and digital to be Skinny Latte

 

[dctom]

Audiophile Bill runs the SS Analog Domain M75 integrated amp, a real beast, and Focal Utopias
He needs tube flavour in his sources to make up for lack of glowing tubes in his amps, for me the secret sauce is in my NATs SETs, too much sauce can be fattening, hence I prefer my phono and digital to be Skinny Latte

Yes I was thinking that was part of the reason for you not being attracted to the GG.
The GG is a more organic beast, to use your analogy, it does have it's own temperament - the way valves are implemented with it, switching between pmc or dsd etc.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm hoping to have another chance to reappraise the GG on SGM again in the nr future, maybe in direct comparison w the Formula
I believe it may be up to 512 spec at that point
I must have heard a good half dozen digital pieces using tubes, and I remain to be convinced
But I hold my hand up and admit the last GG demo may not have been a fair one to draw a firm conclusion on
We'll see next time
Now of course, Formula doesn't do dsd512, just pcm or upsampled to dxd/native dxd, so there again may not be an identical upsampled rate to compare both units by, as prev where GG was 256 and Dac8 was 512
By all accts, Formula is stellar at dxd, what sampling rate shall we choose for GG in comparison?
And Formula can't benefit from the beyond stellar unpwrd Sablon Reserva Elite USB, if we use this one on the GG and standard pwrd Reserva USB on the Formula, how skewed will the a/b end up?

 

[dctom]

This is the problem, being able compare like with like.
My GG is "only" running on 2xDSD as my linux software does not have the 4x upgrade. I got in touch with Lukasz last year about it and he could not understand why I would want 4x DSD - 2x is enough!
I ran the GG at 4x from my dell but it was not as good as 2x on my little fanless linux server.
There are so many inconsistencies.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh, I've given up any notion of easily getting equivalent demos in any interesting top end gear
So, have a chance of hearing GG v Formula, but likely it will be 256 v dxd, unpwrd USB v pwrd
Have had a chance to hear restored Apogees recently and another pair maybe in nr future, but will both likely be w wildly different amps
Tts and arms certainly a crapshoot too re a/b demos
And horns, good ones, just get a demo where you can and don't worry about the ancillaries too much
However at my advanced state of listening to a load of gear over three decades, I really don't need equivalently balanced demos to know whether gear is for me a lot
Eg having heard Apogees, Quads, ML Prodigys on a wide range of gear, they're not speaking to me
A lot of horns don't, but some v certainly do, and I know inherently this is where I'm going w a potential final final move (if I ever get the budget, and keep my nerve)
So, I'll learn a lot the next time I hear GG on SGM, as to whether my reticence last time was justified

 

[dctom]

When ever possible I have tried to listen to potential gear at home in my system, not really possible with large speakers though! Have been known to take almost whole system in the past to a dealers - much simpler set-up then.

 

[shakti]

I had the chance to listen in my system the following DACs in direct comparison:

- Aqua La Scala
- Aqua Formula
- Lampizator DER7 (special edition of Lite 7 with GG parts
- Lampizator GG single and balanced, several tubes
- ANK 5.1 silver signature

I personally prefer High Level Red Book standard (like with Jadis, Oracle or other real high End CD drives) over DSD conversion
(yes, SGM was playing in my home as well)

my impressions :

- Aqua La Scala

good starter level into the world of involving DACs, but too much missing, so finally I did not listened too long to the DAC

- Lampizator DER7 (special edition of Lite 7 with GG parts

here the music starts playing!, using Kron 242 the GG sibling with solid state PSU rocks, a big step from Aqua La Scala
I can understand, that in some mid size set ups the difference to GG is minor.


- Aqua Formula

Wow, that was an easy task, just better than DER7. Higher resolution, better staging, clearer contrasts, like a better focussed picture of the same music., but a little less involving power...


- Lampizator GG single and balanced, 2016 level, integrated R2R , several tubes

I was using all the time RCA connections in the set up, so also the balanced GG was running on RCA. At first I have to mention, that an balanced GG runs better on RCA than a single ended GG. I discussed this with Lukasz on my last visit to Lampizator in Poland. He mentioned, that the PSU works in a better balanced mode in a full balanced GG and that this can result in a better performance even while using RCA outputs.

GG clearly outperformed the Formula in all aspects in my set up (even the GG single)

The Formula lacked the flow and the inner energy a GG can provide. the Formula was not that much involving than GG, still a very good performance, but with GG you are not stopping to listen to music, with Formula you start faster track skipping....


- ANK 5.1 silver signature with 3 shunt PSU, so NOT the standard 5.1 offered on the web side as kit

ANK in Canada is producing an Audio Note UK like level 5 DAC with the same old DAC Chip as Audio Note UK or the popular Kassandra is using.
My ANK DAC is equipped with 2x Kron 5U4G Rectis Lampi Edition (love the sound) and other good tubes.

In my personal opinion the ANK has even more inner energy and dynamics's than the GG. The GG has a slightly higher resolution at the top end, but directly compared I connected faster to the music, than even with the GG.

Finally I could not judge, which DAC I would prefer GG or ANK, both bring me close to the music!, GG can do DSD, which I am not using at all. ANK is optimized for Red Book (understands 24/96)

In the meantime I had the chance to use a

- Total DAC

as well , but not in direct comparison. From my memories, performance was on DER7 level, but with a different sonic character.

 

[KeithR]

Get your tickets, y'all - for the Dac-of-the-Month Train! All Aboard!

 

[shakti]

A train full of DACs?, where can I get the ticket

 

[bonzo75]

Get your tickets, y'all - for the Dac-of-the-Month Train! All Aboard!

Lampi keeps going past more and more stations, because Lukasz keeps tweaking away faster than you can say new dac. So, get on the train, and your route will be customized to where you want to get to

 

[wisnon]

I'm hoping to have another chance to reappraise the GG on SGM again in the nr future, maybe in direct comparison w the Formula
I believe it may be up to 512 spec at that point
I must have heard a good half dozen digital pieces using tubes, and I remain to be convinced
But I hold my hand up and admit the last GG demo may not have been a fair one to draw a firm conclusion on
We'll see next time
Now of course, Formula doesn't do dsd512, just pcm or upsampled to dxd/native dxd, so there again may not be an identical upsampled rate to compare both units by, as prev where GG was 256 and Dac8 was 512
By all accts, Formula is stellar at dxd, what sampling rate shall we choose for GG in comparison?
And Formula can't benefit from the beyond stellar unpwrd Sablon Reserva Elite USB, if we use this one on the GG and standard pwrd Reserva USB on the Formula, how skewed will the a/b end up?

THE POINT IS TO COMPARE max to max. The GG can do 512 and DXD, so you can do both. GG can use unpowered so do that. Formula can use dedicated drive, so use that if available too.

 

[CKKeung]

Two humble opinions of mine :

1. Aqua Formula performs best with its balanced outputs with an all-balanced audio system. If playing music via its single-end rca outputs, Formula is inferior to a Totaldac Six.

2. I don't think DSD512/236 must be better than DXD. Each audiophiles have their own preference. Similarly each DAC performs best at its comfort zone of DSD/PCM & resolution. The beauty of SGMS is that we can optimize our DACS and find out/match them with the TASTE of the owners.