Two unresolved issues

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Phelonious Ponk

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You are making my point - that the null test is useless for this comparison purposes. You will always get a difference signal, but what can you do with it?

What point of yours, exactly, am I making? Did you make the point that if what's left is hash and grunge we can assume the difference is distortion, or did you make the point that if we analyze the null using conventional measurements audiophiles will just reject it out of hand anyway?

Tim
 
“When I say "measure everything we can hear" I refer only to those things that gear does to degrade audio fidelity. I am specifically not talking about psychoacoustics, such as how we perceive the "imaging" that's embedded in a recording.”

The gist of this is so scantily understood that your words are worth repeating (so I did).

As a signal purest, the goal is to amplify or do whatever job, without any alteration of the signal, a “straight wire with gain” as they used to say.
30 years ago, the ways one could analyze an audio signal were limited without a large budget and even then it was crude by today’s standards. When Dick Heyser resolved time delay Spectrometry, time analysis became somewhat easy, now there are a myriad of ways open to the investigator.
Many based on the same basic idea that you can compare the input to the output.

What has not changed is the need to learn from the appearance of measurements what specific features might sound like as well as their cause and correction.

I wouldn’t say unfortunately but the designer of equipment that is for others to use is more or less boxed into the position of being that purest too.
Some people aren’t aware that say their loudspeakers polar pattern or amplitude and phase response have driven their musical taste in one direction or another .
I mean in ones personal system, they could let their musical taste drive the colorations they have / tolerate.
At least when developing loudspeakers for others to use, you don’t want bias, when you have “something’ that makes one recording sound better, there will be other things that it makes sound worse. The path is normally to go towards the better measured one, it will have less effect on more music.
With loudspeakers it’s relatively easy as they are orders of magnitude less ideal than most electronics, there also one needs to look at ‘faster” events than with loudspeakers.
One area that is lacking I think is measurements that span a large dynamic range. I sat in at an AES chapter measurement seminar in Atlanta on Saturday and it struck me that while many domains are covered, we do not examine much dynamically.
With loudspeakers , there are a number of things which can effect what a loudspeakers does relative to the input signal.
Power compression is the most well known but there are a number of nonlinearities and hysteresis elements involved so even recent history effects the response, distortion etc, what they do, and nearly all these problems get larger / louder faster than the desired signal.

In blind testing, the difference I reliably heard between a number of amplifiers fell into two groups.
One group sounded fine except that with some very dynamic program material, the decay side sounded “granular” or stepped somehow as the signal extinguished.
The other group sounded essentially identical except the decay was smooth to the vanishing point.
The one very surprising thing we found was that at a point WAY below 0dB (like -20) on it’s output indicators, one smaller amplifier was instantaneously clipping.
I don’t mean traditional clipping but a cycle here or there on peaks and something I would not have guessed.
That was inaudible as a “flaw” until compared to a larger unclipped amplifier when the unclipped amp had a more dynamic sound. Again if there were a dynamic measurement comparable to music, this would have shown up (other than on the oscilloscope I got out to find the cause of the difference I mean)
Best,
Tom Danley
Danley Sound Labs
 

Lee

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Lee,

Thanks for your testimony. Could you tell us which ADC-DAC units you have used?

Sure, but the observations hold really been across many ADCs and DACs across time. At Chesky we used a variety of ADCs from stuff like Muse to Weiss. Recently we have used Benchmark ADC1 and DAC1s, some modded, some stock; the ADC in the Sound Devices 722; Alessis gear modded and not; and the Korg units. Playback has included a wide variety of stuff from my Sony SCD-777ES to Oppo 83 and 83SE, my modded and updated Benchmark DAC1. Plus every year I'm at the Rocky Mountain show carrying around our latest two track recordings.

As for my love for SACD, that probably started when I bought McCoy Tyner's New York Reunion, a session I ran the analog tape machine on and we also did digital on. The SACD was a DSD transfer from Barry Wolifson using the tapes. When I heard the SACD I felt that finally captured the session really well. While I had been proud to be part of the team, the CD while really a demo cd for its day never really captured the sounds of the session imho.

Later I began listening to a friend's recordings of fine LPs on a portable and then later rack Korg unit. The sound quality was simply fantastic, even when downrezzed to 16/44.1. We then did some recordings after my friend Nick bought a Korg unit. Again really natural sound.

P.S. We use a mic cable splitter with a long run of Kimber KCAG XLR terminated. We can record into two 722 boxes simultaneously. Often we do it for redundancy but sometimes we do this to test new gear. We also like the Pear Audio Comice cables. We use a simple ORTF mic formation with two AKG 414-BULS mics and have several favored churches and other spaces we record at so over time we have learned precisely where to place the mics for best results.
 

Bruce B

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So I'll ask you the same thing - what specific physical property of sound does digital audio not capture? And why do you think a null test is not proof?
--Ethan

It is proof if you can null a digital signal against an analog signal. Doing a null against 2 digital signals proves nothing. It's already been digitized.
 

Lee

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Some further thoughts. I do not believe we can measure everything we hear but I do believe measurements are important for our quest for knowledge and better audio practices.

1. Often the science while advanced does not catch up with what we hear. Take for instance the work that Bob Harley did in the 80s and 90s around investigating why different cd transports sounded different. At the time, our knowledge of jitter was not robust and we had no idea that the human ear could hear picosecond differences. Indeed initially the great Julian Dunn only thought nanosecond difference could be heard-although he suggested the spectrum was important as well and that was an important contribution. Over time Bob measured the time distortion and transports and cd players and the idea that jitter was important was socialized. Bob Katz and many others did some great work also but Harley's work at Stereophile really got the message out imho. Likewise, Jeremy Kipnis and others at Chesky were among the first to play with hirez digital and while we heard the improvement of the extra sampling/word length, many others remained unconvinced for many years. I love science but I don't expect it to explain everything perfectly. There is lots of evolution of ideas.

2. While we can measure single dimensions of audio sound, I am not convinced (based on my reading and practical experience) that we understand fully the entire phenomena of sound. Stereo sound is a 3D experience that I believe would involve the capture of many dimensions simultaneously.

3. Many suggest the Nyquist Theorem is absolute proof that 16/44.1 can capture everything to 20khz. In my experience that is simply not true. When you have 24/88 or higher, you hear more "hall" and the timbre of string instruments, to name just two, gets more accurate. Ditto for DSD where you are looking at changes in the waveform versus the height of the waveform.

P.S. Jeremy has not been happy to stop at 24 bits. He is doing 32 bit recordings now at least when he is not playing with HT.
 

Stereoeditor

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So I'll ask you the same thing - what specific physical property of sound does digital audio not capture? And why do you think a null test is not proof?

I haven't made any comment on null tests in this thread, Ethan.

You refer very often to measurements and measured data to support your arguments, Ethan. But to satisfy my curiosity, speaking as someone who has devoted a large part of his life to trying to find what measurements correlate perceptions with sound quality, would you mind listing the test equipment you use, please.

I use SONAR to create null tests, and Sound Forge (and sometimes the Rightmark analyzer) to view FFTs.

Thank you. But these are both software solutions. Their performance will therefore depend on the hardware with which they are used. What A/D converters do you use, what is their resolution/noisefloor performance, and what calibration have you performed of that hardware?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
 

Lee

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I don't think anyone is questioning the audibility of recording, and the subsequent processing in hi res. The only question, from my perspective anyway, is whether or not the final distribution media cd vs sacd is audibly different.

Agreed on most of the above, but every time I've heard a difference between the same material in hi-res and redbook, it ended up being the mastering, not the format. When I down converted the hi res to 16/44.1, the difference disappeared. Could be my expectation bias. We'll have to agree to disagree on the idea that LPs are high resolution. If nothing else, the noise floor prevents that from becoming a practical reality.

If you're running DBTs to understand the listening skills of the participants you shouldn't be at all surprised if you come away without a thorough understanding of the sonic differences of the gear. In fact, the gear shouldn't change at all. This statement just indicates bad methodology or a bad understanding of the objectives.

Tim,

I want to address these three points, since I think we are on the same page otherwise. First, I think SACD is a a far better medium than CD. It has a more pure midrange and the noise shaping that occurs in the HF region is so far out that I and others simply don't hear it. I've got a thousand SACDs and when they are good masterings. I also was at several of these sessions and know what the event sounded like. Even with reference level CD playback, the SACD on a good player (no PCM conversion, etc.) always wins versus CD. There is just something wonderful about DSD encoding. Also, if you record a string ensemble playing the DSD encoding will slightly edge out the 24/176 recording. Both will be really terrific but I prefer the DSD. Of course, the microphone placement and skill of the engineer is also critical. Some SACDs simply sound bad because of the poor original recording. You cannot polish the proverbial turd.

I'm not sure I follow the third point above on DBTs. My point is that having critical listening skills is paramount and many of these tests which are designed to test equipment differences really wind up revealing those that do and don't have critical listening skills. But it can be an important tool. Many high end manufacturers do both objective measurements and subjective listening sessions. I like that approach.

So if you ask me if I like an objective approach or a subjective one, I would answer "Yes". :) I think the truth lies with using both.
 

microstrip

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What point of yours, exactly, am I making? Did you make the point that if what's left is hash and grunge we can assume the difference is distortion, or did you make the point that if we analyze the null using conventional measurements audiophiles will just reject it out of hand anyway?

Tim
Tim,
I explain with more detail :
My point is that you can not analyze the residuals using the conventional measurements - the residuals were obtained from musical data not test tones and instruments can not process them.

What do you want to do with them? If you do not suggest a way of using them we can consider them useless.

Audiophiles can always try to amplify them and play them - I doubt that it will be any value. :confused:
 

Lee

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1. The Mark Levinson improved the fidelity of all sources playing CDs. The high frequency would be slightly smoother and I could hear more ambiance in notes decaying. And the decay was smoother going nicely into noise as opposed to stopping faster with the internal DAC.

2. The fidelity improved when I would turn of video and front panel displays in transports (with or without external DAC). Later I read reviews of these players that showed their DAC linearity improved by more than 2 bits with these tweaks!

3. CD against DVD-A and SACD would lose. It would suffer the reverse of what I mentioned in #1. Adding the Mark Levinson DAC would narrow the gap substantially but it would still lose to the stand-alone players using their internal DAC by a small factor.

4. The DVD-A sources would all lose to SACD. Addition of Mark Levinson sharply closed the gap but a tiny advantage remained in favor of SACD.

Amir,

This mirrors my experience. A friend has a high end Wadia DAC and the difference between the upsampled CD has narrowed to SACD but a gap still exists. I hear the difference in soundstage depth and width and instrument timbre. I rarely hear jazz drummers hitting a cymbal sound properly on CD. There is a certain "shimmer" to a cymbal that I find 16/44 has trouble encoding properly.
 

fas42

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I sure get that this is your observation, Frank, what I don't get is how you can possibly have come to these conclusions.
Because I have personally experienced it, and my wife has experienced it. That's enough for me ...

To summarise:

* All recordings capture enough of the musical event to allow playback to be convincing
* Low level distortion introduced over the whole path from microphone to output from speaker masks the low level information about the musical event to the point where the ear/brain can't separate the two, and playback sounds like normal hifi
* Reduce the distortion component generated by the playback mechanism, especially in the area of low level, high frequency artifacts and the ear/brain then is capable of doing its job of focusing on what it wants to hear, discarding what is not relevant to the message
* When this happens the reproduced musical event sounds real, is convincing, has the "magic" ...

Frank
 

Lee

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I have yet to find a RB CD that does NOT have the cymbal "shimmer" captured correctly ...

Frank

Really? How odd. Have you compared a disc versus the hirez version of the same session?
 

fas42

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The one very surprising thing we found was that at a point WAY below 0dB (like -20) on it’s output indicators, one smaller amplifier was instantaneously clipping.
I don’t mean traditional clipping but a cycle here or there on peaks and something I would not have guessed.
That was inaudible as a “flaw” until compared to a larger unclipped amplifier when the unclipped amp had a more dynamic sound. Again if there were a dynamic measurement comparable to music, this would have shown up (other than on the oscilloscope I got out to find the cause of the difference I mean)
This is exactly the sort of thing I have been talking about, that I have heard over and over again listening to many systems ...

Frank
 

Bruce B

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Really? How odd. Have you compared a disc versus the hirez version of the same session?

Yes, it's easy. We have thousands of hi-rez files that have great cymbal tone/sheen. You do a SRC down to 16/44.1 and all is lost.:(
 

fas42

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Really? How odd. Have you compared a disc versus the hirez version of the same session?
No, I don't have access to hirez, and would have very rarely heard examples played on other people's systems. I agree that typically on CD systems this is an area of difficulty for reproduction, a classic weak spot which highlights an area where optimising the playback is key. The point being, that the shimmer will sound hopeless on normal playback, one may conclude that the recording is poor, until the CD is played on a correctly adjusted system when the correct sound is fully revealed -- in other words the recording DID do its job properly ...

An excellent test CD I've found for this, as I have mentioned several times is Status Quo, "12 Gold Bars" (greatest hits)

Frank
 

Lee

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Frank,

I see what you mean but I am referring to well-recorded cymbal sound. I think you want to minimize the variable of recording quality for testing formats.

I am not familiar with the 12 Gold Bars. I will look for that.
 

fas42

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I see what you mean but I am referring to well-recorded cymbal sound. I think you want to minimize the variable of recording quality for testing formats.

I am not familiar with the 12 Gold Bars. I will look for that.
Yes that's Vol. 1, all the famous hits. A good track is "Caroline", but all are good: the crash cymbal is struck virtually constantly throughout the track. I'll be interested in your thoughts on it ...

Again, the point relates to Ethan's original query: where do people believe that digital can't capture the musical event? I am in full agreement with Ethan; that the event IS totally captured, irrespective of the format. Whether the playback mechanism then finds it easier or harder to unravel the resultant recording is another issue ...

Frank

Frank
 

Lee

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Yes that's Vol. 1, all the famous hits. A good track is "Caroline", but all are good: the crash cymbal is struck virtually constantly throughout the track. I'll be interested in your thoughts on it ...

Again, the point relates to Ethan's original query: where do people believe that digital can't capture the musical event? I am in full agreement with Ethan; that the event IS totally captured, irrespective of the format. Whether the playback mechanism then finds it easier or harder to unravel the resultant recording is another issue ...

Frank

Frank

Well I believe I answered that earlier Frank. I believe that even reference CD ADC and DAC leaves much to be desired.

I've been working on a complex Kodaly cello recording which is simply one musician in a church with superb acoustics. Keeping all else equal we have this recording (still working on the 3rd movement due to very minor issues, the musician is keen on perfection-artists!) in 24/176 our preferred format and 16/44.1 which we make for musicians which generally don't have hirez playback although I have converted a few.

The hirez cello sounds like the real thing. The redbook not so much. It is missing the "hall" effects. It is missing the woodiness of the cello. The timbre is simply off.

Now CD recording and playback is still much better than even two years ago but there is a gap between it and hirez.

It's just that simple.
 

Bruce B

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The hirez cello sounds like the real thing. The redbook not so much. It is missing the "hall" effects. It is missing the woodiness of the cello. The timbre is simply off.
It's just that simple.

Don't let Ethan hear you say that. He said "woodiness"... in my Beavis and Butthead impression!
 

Lee

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Don't let Ethan hear you say that. He said "woodiness"... in my Beavis and Butthead impression!

LOL! On some boards that would be enough to derail the discussion altogether.
 
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