Nadac?

[pjwd]

Happy New year Andrew
Excellent post - it goes to the heart of how profoundly pathetic the digital world is in serving its customers
Brilliant technical steps forward to be sure but all software seems to have inexplicable faults due to poor design

On computer audio

I have been very happy with dual computer ,A0, jplay and all that to the extent that my CEC TLOX is not even plugged in but have yet to figure out how to get DSD through it to the nagra - I might just stay with pcm for a while !

Cheers,
Phil

 

[audio.bill]

Andrew - to quote your own tagline, thanks for sharing! An excellent and balanced review of the NADAC which identifies many key points for consideration before committing to a purchase. Very well done sir!

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

Pleasure gents,

I'm no one's fan boy, and call it as I see it, warts and all. Of course, its just my opinion, and others may have different views. I'll be interested to see what our Australian hi end reviewer (Edgar Kramer) makes of it.

And so, with the greatest of respect to Edgar, and having meet him I have no doubt he will be all over this, I am not sure that comparing DSD from the Nadac to PCM from a CDP isn't like comparing apples and oranges.

How exactly it possible to compare pcm 16/44 with a manipulated signal via tubes in a SOTA cdp, like Ed's AMR 77 which is an amazing thing) , to dsd 256 with a manipulated signal via the dsp in HQ Player in my server, I don't know. I don't think it is. Both manipulate the signal. Both do so for pleasing effect. the dsp in HQ Player is hugely configurable, and you can literally tune the sound you want to your system. Much like rolling tubes in Mike's Golden Gate.

I suggest what is valid is to recognise the different beasts for what they are, and that they all have their strengths and weaknesses, and fitting eg a Nadac into your system, may by necessity involve a different choice of ancillary gear than eg a tubed CDP. Maybe. Dunno. Anyway that is Ed's headache, not mine. It's a big bite to chew. We shall see.

No pressure Ed!

I would have thought the better comparison would be to see what happens in the studio interface ie what people mastering using the Horus and Hapi are hearing; perhaps as part of his review Ed may visit one of the Merging workstations and hear what they are doing.

But really - as I have said many many times - it all comes down to the care taken with the recording in the first place. Give me well recorded and performed PCM over crap DSD anytime. But better still that pcm > dsp 256 dsd via HQP.

I think Merging have a break through product here, but they need to go back to the drawing board with how its packaged. It never ceases to amaze me that companies don't do their market research properly first - and their market is NOT legacy computer audio or transports. Their market is SOTA bleeding edge best solution available at this time. Know your niche and go for it, I say.

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

Happy New year Andrew
Excellent post - it goes to the heart of how profoundly pathetic the digital world is in serving its customers
Brilliant technical steps forward to be sure but all software seems to have inexplicable faults due to poor design

On computer audio

I have been very happy with dual computer ,A0, jplay and all that to the extent that my CEC TLOX is not even plugged in but have yet to figure out how to get DSD through it to the nagra - I might just stay with pcm for a while !

Cheers,
Phil

Does your Nagra play DSD mate?

As Mike Davis (Blizzard) has pointed out to me (very patiently I will add - thanks Mike) the magic is in the HQ Player math. Not sure how that would integrate if at all with JPlay.

But being windows based you should have a Nagra ASIO driver for DSD natively. It should be straight forward.

 

[pjwd]

Andrew
Nagra plays native dsd128 ( I think) but jplay is in the way - should work with jriver converting to dop but for some reason did not - down at Byron right now with second system that is sooo simple - bliss
Will get back on the horse when back and report

 

[Blizzard]

Hi Guys,

I'll chime in later on some thoughts I have on Andrew's review, and other questions. It's New Year's Eve so don't have the time.

Anyways great review, and my name is Mike Davis, not Davies

Happy New Years guys!

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

Ahhh enjoy Byron mate. Nice spot for 20 something backpackers and sannyasins' .

JRiver will work, but HQ Player is an order of life better.

Simple is good, eh.

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

I should also add this:

The rest of your system better be up to snuff, because the Nadac will ruthlessly reveal problems with it. In my case that means I will face two options if I keep it, a substantial upgrade on my amplification OR a substantial investment in a head phone rig for it.

The Mytek, on the other hand, synergises extremely well with my Benchmark AHB2 (which is a wholly transparent amplifier) and doesn't highlight its short comings.

That said, the Nadac is beguiling in its rendition of DSD, and has a presentation I have just haven't heard from digital before. To me, it has been worth all the trouble.

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

Hi Guys,

I'll chime in later on some thoughts I have on Andrew's review, and other questions. It's New Year's Eve so don't have the time.

Anyways great review, and my name is Mike Davis, not Davies

Happy New Years guys!

Sorry Mike, my bad.

I'll look forward to your thoughts when you have time. I am sure you would have some great ideas for making it a simpler but better box.

Ha! Dunno if I'd call it a review, it's more random thoughts I have been having, jotted down in a stream of consciousness....no real structure of order there..

But thanks.

Happy new Year mate - its new year day here: lovely 75 degrees no rain and a light breeze. I'm listening to Ella

 

[pjwd]

Ahhh enjoy Byron mate. Nice spot for 20 something backpackers and sannyasins' .

JRiver will work, but HQ Player is an order of life better.

Simple is good, eh.

Yes the upgrade to room / hq is on the horizon but jplay needs to stream dsd - meanwhile I will get my chakras in balance

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

Yes the upgrade to room / hq is on the horizon but jplay needs to stream dsd - meanwhile I will get my chakras in balance

Watch the toes mate - the fish have been abit nippy this year.

Ohm to you as well my friend. Enjoy the hols.

 

[bmoura]

I think Merging have a break through product here, but they need to go back to the drawing board with how its packaged.

How do they need to package it differently?

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

How do they need to package it differently?

See my thoughts posted above.

In summary:

Personally I think they need to package it a pre configured (ie with Merging firmware) managed switch so it really is plug and play in your LAN (loading ASIO drivers aside).

My feeling is that putting that on the consumer, or the dealer/distributor network isn't great. And I don't think their literature makes it plain it really is mandatory. So instead of a plug and mostly play, consumers are getting.. a problem to fix before they can easily use it. Unless they forgo functionality, as I have.

This isn't a high volume unit. If they sell 100 a year worldwide I'd be surprised. It is a niche product - which is why I suggest they should stop mucking about, take their foot out of the legacy camp, and their nod to the consumer market with the poor headphone out and build a SOTA ethernet converter. Not a pre amp, not a head phone amp, just a unit that does one thing very, very well: play DXD & DSD over a ethernet connection - both fiber and copper. The case could be smaller as well. The thing is huge. Oh and get rid of the ridiculous connector for the DC in, and replace it with something sensible, like an XLR or Speakeron. The connector they use is a nightmare to solder a connection to. Finally have it properly configurable over the network and get rid of the silly tiny screen which is just painful to use. A 2 inch 160 x 120 pixels isn't going to excite anyone OLED or otherwise.

Now this is just my opinion as an owner and user. Others may think entirely differently. And that is perfectly ok as well.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Please excuse the basic nature of this comment. What sets apart Ravenna protocol from the protocol used by the Linn DS players - not talking about dsd - just PCM and actual electronic benefits?

Thx

 

[Blizzard]

Please excuse the basic nature of this comment. What sets apart Ravenna protocol from the protocol used by the Linn DS players - not talking about dsd - just PCM and actual electronic benefits?

Thx

Ravenna is much more like the HQplayer NAA. It's not limited to DLNA/UpNP like Linn's system is. So it's exactly like USB when it comes to how it connects to the server. You can use any media player software with it. For example, you can't use the Roon/HQplayer combo with any other Ethernet interface besides Ravenna. It also use a grand master clocking scheme that allows up to 48 channels of DSD 256 to stream to several different DAC's on a single gigabit Ethernet network with around 1 nanosecond of skew between devices.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Ravenna is much more like the HQplayer NAA. It's not limited to DLNA/UpNP like Linn's system is. So it's exactly like USB when it comes to how it connects to the server. You can use any media player software with it. For example, you can't use the Roon/HQplayer combo with any other Ethernet interface besides Ravenna. It also use a grand master clocking scheme that allows up to 48 channels of DSD 256 to stream to several different DAC's on a single gigabit Ethernet network with around 1 nanosecond of skew between devices.

Thanks a lot, Blizz. Makes sense - quite substantially different entities then!

 

[Blizzard]

See my thoughts posted above.

In summary:

Personally I think they need to package it a pre configured (ie with Merging firmware) managed switch so it really is plug and play in your LAN (loading ASIO drivers aside).

My feeling is that putting that on the consumer, or the dealer/distributor network isn't great. And I don't think their literature makes it plain it really is mandatory. So instead of a plug and mostly play, consumers are getting.. a problem to fix before they can easily use it. Unless they forgo functionality, as I have.

This isn't a high volume unit. If they sell 100 a year worldwide I'd be surprised. It is a niche product - which is why I suggest they should stop mucking about, take their foot out of the legacy camp, and their nod to the consumer market with the poor headphone out and build a SOTA ethernet converter. Not a pre amp, not a head phone amp, just a unit that does one thing very, very well: play DXD & DSD over a ethernet connection - both fiber and copper. The case could be smaller as well. The thing is huge. Oh and get rid of the ridiculous connector for the DC in, and replace it with something sensible, like an XLR or Speakeron. The connector they use is a nightmare to solder a connection to. Finally have it properly configurable over the network and get rid of the silly tiny screen which is just painful to use. A 2 inch 160 x 120 pixels isn't going to excite anyone OLED or otherwise.

Now this is just my opinion as an owner and user. Others may think entirely differently. And that is perfectly ok as well.

I still don't know why you are saying you need custom firmware and the special switch? It works perfectly fine with a standard router for everyone else. The special switch is only for when you are syncing multiple devices together in a studio environment. And yes I do think they need to make this clear in their user manual.

I think with a clear no brainer step by step setup guide, all of the caveats you mentioned about the setup would be a non issue. As far as the headphone setup that may be a different story.

About the output levels. The 18DBu, 6.1V RMS outputs is well above industry standards for home audio gear. Most DAC's put out around 4-4.6v RMS from the XLR outs. If pro level output is required, I would suggest the $4200 Merging Hapi. As it's pretty much the same DAC, minus the headphone section, need to use an AES breakout cable for the XLR outputs, and ability to sum all the 4 channels per side into 1 for slightly better S/N ratio and dynamic range. Also I understand the mobile app doesn't work with the Hapi either.

In the real world you would likely hear very little difference between the 2 DAC's

Another bonus with the Hapi is, you can always pop the ADC board into it and make some first rate DSD256 rips from your vinyl collection!

 

[bibo01]

I still don't know why you are saying you need custom firmware and the special switch? It works perfectly fine with a standard router for everyone else. The special switch is only for when you are syncing multiple devices together in a studio environment. And yes I do think they need to make this clear in their user manual.

I think with a clear no brainer step by step setup guide, all of the caveats you mentioned about the setup would be a non issue. As far as the headphone setup that may be a different story.

About the output levels. The 18DBu, 6.1V RMS outputs is well above industry standards for home audio gear. Most DAC's put out around 4-4.6v RMS from the XLR outs. If pro level output is required, I would suggest the $4200 Merging Hapi. As it's pretty much the same DAC, minus the headphone section, need to use an AES breakout cable for the XLR outputs, and ability to sum all the 4 channels per side into 1 for slightly better S/N ratio and dynamic range. Also I understand the mobile app doesn't work with the Hapi either.

In the real world you would likely hear very little difference between the 2 DAC's

Another bonus with the Hapi is, you can always pop the ADC board into it and make some first rate DSD256 rips from your vinyl collection!

For HAPI, the only player that can L, R, L, R, L, R, L, R on its 8 channels is Merging's Emotion. Merging implemented this feature after a request by Italian distributor, Igor Fiorini. However, unfortunately Emotion is bundled with NADAC only. As a matter of fact, also HQPlayer can do it through its Matrix, but it uses an awful amount of resources because it processes 8ch.
Then at the back of the Hapi you need something like this:

 

[Blizzard]

For HAPI, the only player that can L, R, L, R, L, R, L, R on its 8 channels is Merging's Emotion. Merging implemented this feature after a request by Italian distributor, Igor Fiorini. However, unfortunately Emotion is bundled with NADAC only. As a matter of fact, also HQPlayer can do it through its Matrix, but it uses an awful amount of resources because it processes 8ch.
Then at the back of the Hapi you need something like this:

View attachment 24684

I guess you either have to just use the 2 channels not summed, or spend an extra $6300 on the NADAC But I suppose that summing interface would be fine as long as good wires and solder was used.

 

[bibo01]

I guess you either have to just use the 2 channels not summed, or spend an extra $6300 on the NADAC

Getting hold of Emotion is not too difficult and make the output device I posted is not too expensive

...or make your own ASIO player like some friends of mine have done
They are now exploring the possibility to talk to Ravenna directly through RTSP and SDP protocols, bypassing ASIO.