The meaning of measurements

[zztop7]

Good Morning Bruce B, The following question is for my EDUCATION purposes only.

Everytime I hear Lamm in a system, it does things no other equipment can begin to do.

Good Morning Bruce B,
The following question is for my EDUCATION purposes only. The question is not to be contrary, combative, or to find fault [not my style].

"Everytime I hear Lamm in a system, it does things no other equipment can begin to do."[/QUOTE]

What "things" that "no other equipment can begin to do." ?????

>>> I know you have the EAR [actually 2]. I know you KNOW audio. I know you have an Excellent system. Can you follow up on "things"? <<<

Respectfully,
zz

 

[Steve Williams]

Good Morning Bruce B,
The following question is for my EDUCATION purposes only. The question is not to be contrary, combative, or to find fault [not my style].

"Everytime I hear Lamm in a system, it does things no other equipment can begin to do."

What "things" that "no other equipment can begin to do." ?????

>>> I know you have the EAR [actually 2]. I know you KNOW audio. I know you have an Excellent system. Can you follow up on "things"? <<<

Respectfully,
zz[/QUOTE]

simply put, it provides a mid range that IMHO no other make of amplifier can equal, solid state or tube

 

[JackD201]

Beautiful and Versatile don't automatically go hand in hand. They do with the ML3. Steve and Ron put them through an extreme range of musical styles when I visited. I loved 'em. What Steve says about the mids is all true. While they can't drive most every speaker out there like it's hybrid brother the M2.2 can, paired with the right speakers it is magical indeed.

 

[garylkoh]

simply put, it provides a mid range that IMHO no other make of amplifier can equal, solid state or tube

That's where IMHO a lot of measurements start to fall apart. The usual measurements are taken from 20Hz to 20kHz, and then 1/3 octave smoothing is applied. A lot of abnormalities would have been missed in the smoothing alone. For the midrange, the 200Hz to 600Hz is extremely important. A 3dB dip at 45Hz or 6dB bump at 13kHz, far less important. The measurements as taken by most place too much emphasis on 20 to 20, and far too little emphasis on critical regions.

On the other hand, if you looked at an un-smoothed loudspeaker frequency response or phase response, you'd run screaming that there's no way anything that measured like that can sound good at all.

 

[jkeny]

That's where IMHO a lot of measurements start to fall apart. The usual measurements are taken from 20Hz to 20kHz, and then 1/3 octave smoothing is applied. A lot of abnormalities would have been missed in the smoothing alone. For the midrange, the 200Hz to 600Hz is extremely important. A 3dB dip at 45Hz or 6dB bump at 13kHz, far less important. The measurements as taken by most place too much emphasis on 20 to 20, and far too little emphasis on critical regions.

On the other hand, if you looked at an un-smoothed loudspeaker frequency response or phase response, you'd run screaming that there's no way anything that measured like that can sound good at all.

Yes & focussing measurements on psychoacoustically important areas (rather than spreading an averaged measurement across the full spectrum) may well begin to yield the answer to the question of why it measures bad but sounds great.

A David Geisner presentation on "pitch, timbre & source separation" makes for an interesting read in this area http://www.davidgriesinger.com/Acou...mbre, Source Separation_talk_web_sound_3.pptx

 

[rockitman]

Better yet, call him and see if he will send you a loaner

I looked at the LP1 Signature spec sheet. For the money it is very limited on gain and input cart impedance options. Of the two moving coil inputs, one is 71dB gain and an impedance of 31.5 ohms and MC 2 input is 430 ohms and 59 dB gain. That just is not enough flexibility. I'm sure they can be changed at the factory to what you want, but you still only have two options. Too bad.

 

[Steve Williams]

I looked at the LP1 Signature spec sheet. For the money it is very limited on gain and input cart impedance options. Of the two moving coil inputs, one is 71dB gain and an impedance of 31.5 ohms and MC 2 input is 430 ohms and 59 dB gain. That just is not enough flexibility. I'm sure they can be changed at the factory to what you want, but you still only have two options. Too bad.

you should ask Strapper about his. I am hearing very good things about it. Best sound no doubt comes when the LP1 is mated with the LL1/ML3

 

[rockitman]

you should ask Strapper about his. I am hearing very good things about it. Best sound no doubt comes when the LP1 is mated with the LL1/ML3

I bet they sound good together. I cannot give up the dynamic slam and power of my Pass xs150's. I would miss that with the set low powered Lamms that are almost double the cost of my amps.

 

[Steve Williams]

I bet they sound good together. I cannot give up the dynamic slam and power of my Pass xs150's. I would miss that with the set low powered Lamms that are almost double the cost of my amps.

you need to hear the amp and read what Fremer said about the bottom end.

Personally I'll take the best midrange any day of the week at the expense of what you call dynamic slam. With my 2 Fathom subs plus the ML3 there is no looking back. I have the best midrange and all the slam I want. You are somewhat misguided in your interpretation of the amp

 

[rockitman]

you need to hear the amp and read what Fremer said about the bottom end.

Personally I'll take the best midrange any day of the week at the expense of what you call dynamic slam. With my 2 Fathom subs plus the ML3 there is no looking back. I have the best midrange and all the slam I want. You are somewhat misguided in your interpretation of the amp

My class A biased midrange is pretty sweet too.I would rather have the seamless integration of all my bass sound coming from each speaker rather than having to integrate a sub via cross over. I know tube midrange is seductive.

 

[caesar]

you need to hear the amp and read what Fremer said about the bottom end.

Personally I'll take the best midrange any day of the week at the expense of what you call dynamic slam. With my 2 Fathom subs plus the ML3 there is no looking back. I have the best midrange and all the slam I want. You are somewhat misguided in your interpretation of the amp

Steve, out of curiosity, do you rock out? If not, I understand your post. But if you do, the 2 subs will not match the slam of a quality SS amp. Fremer likes to rock out, and that is the reason why he has had a powerful SS amp as a reference for as long as I can remember. I also have tubes and SS amps for my systems.

The reality is that no system that does everything well. The myth of "one best system" has been propagated by the magazines, and has been reinforced by our budgets and space constraints in our living quarters. The solution to satisfy all kinds of moods and types of music is to get both SS amps and tube amps, and swap them out depending on your mood. Make no mistake that if Fremer's comments at the end are to be taken seriously, and he could afford the amp he was reviewing, he would snatch the Lamms in a second and swap them out based on what music he wants to listen to.

 

[mep]

Caesar-I don't understand your post. Steve's subs are driven by built-in SS amps same as most people who buy subs.

 

[Steve Williams]

Steve, out of curiosity, do you rock out? If not, I understand your post. But if you do, the 2 subs will not match the slam of a quality SS amp. Fremer likes to rock out, and that is the reason why he has had a powerful SS amp as a reference for as long as I can remember. I also have tubes and SS amps for my systems.

The reality is that no system that does everything well. The myth of "one best system" has been propagated by the magazines, and has been reinforced by our budgets and space constraints in our living quarters. The solution to satisfy all kinds of moods and types of music is to get both SS amps and tube amps, and swap them out depending on your mood. Make no mistake that if Fremer's comments at the end are to be taken seriously, and he could afford the amp he was reviewing, he would snatch the Lamms in a second and swap them out based on what music he wants to listen to.

As I said before ill sacrifice bass slam for the sake of the best mid range and supplement the bottom end. Yes I rock out more so than playing subdued or chamber music. Plus the size of my room has resulted in bass beyond what I would have ever expected. As for swapping out IMO there is just no need as the ML3 delivers better than any amp I have ever owned. I will never buy another amp/preamp

 

[RogerD]

As I said before ill sacrifice bass slam for the sake of the best mid range and supplement the bottom end. Yes I rock out more so than playing subdued or chamber music. Plus the size of my room has resulted in bass beyond what I would have ever expected. As for swapping out IMO there is just no need as the ML3 delivers better than any amp I have ever owned. I will never buy another amp/preamp

Never say never

 

[Bruce B]

Good Morning Bruce B,
The following question is for my EDUCATION purposes only. The question is not to be contrary, combative, or to find fault [not my style].

"Everytime I hear Lamm in a system, it does things no other equipment can begin to do."

What "things" that "no other equipment can begin to do." ?????

>>> I know you have the EAR [actually 2]. I know you KNOW audio. I know you have an Excellent system. Can you follow up on "things"? <<<

Respectfully,
zz

There are only a couple amps that I know of that can pull off the complete range of a piano and female voice perfectly. The Lamm is one of them and the other I've heard is the Tube Research Labs monoblocs.

 

[Steve Williams]

Never say never

repeat after me

"I will never buy another amp or preamp. For those who have heard the ML3 understand how amazing it is.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

There are only a couple amps that I know of that can pull off the complete range of a piano and female voice perfectly. The Lamm is one of them and the other I've heard is the Tube Research Labs monoblocs.

Damn...I guess, given my budget, I'm pretty much screwed then! Oh well!

 

[Bruce B]

Damn...I guess, given my budget, I'm pretty much screwed then! Oh well!

me too!!

 

[caesar]

Caesar-I don't understand your post. Steve's subs are driven by built-in SS amps same as most people who buy subs.

What I'm getting at is that there's a difference between deep bass from a sub and dynamic bass that a powerful SS amp delivers. Otherwise, Fremer would have emulated Steve's setup. Instead, he has been sacrificing the midrange of tubes for "slam" and the other benefits of monster SS amps.

 

[caesar]

There are only a couple amps that I know of that can pull off the complete range of a piano and female voice perfectly. The Lamm is one of them and the other I've heard is the Tube Research Labs monoblocs.

Don't the latter blow up occasionally?