What's wrong with stereo?

Soundproof

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Third, 3channel stereo never failed. It was simply never really offered to the public.

Kal

What was the reasoning behind that Kal? I thought that orginally stereo was based on 3 channels?

Recording engineers recorded in 3-channel, in the hope that a marketable and affordable 3-channel playback system would be developed. They experimented with tape-solutions, but tape was very expensive and the 2-track tapes that stereo was originally launched on to the public were quickly replaced by 4-track, to justify the cost of the tape to consumers. (In today's money, a selection of tracks from a full-length release, offered on 2-track, would cost in excess of USD 100).
So the writing was on the wall. 3-track L/C/R tapes would never gain wide distribution - too expensive; 2-track was quickly replaced with 4-track. And the industry latched on to vinyl as the viable stereo format, because customers seemed sufficiently satisfied with the novelty of getting a two-channel stereo image, and didn't know what they were missing out on.
It's also worth noting that it took a while for people to start doing sensible stereo - sometimes they were "orchestra in left channel, singer in right."

3-channel properly recorded playback is sublime, and I've never experienced any swimming of sources as described above.

For a taste of what could have been, get the "Souvenir" LP-release by 2L. While in 2-channel, it uses a specific recording technique where the center-channel is given priority (with the lowest sounding string instruments placed in the center, and the rest of the orchestra radiating out from that center in a mixed-voices arrangement.) In the mix, priority is given to the center-channel signal, and L/R is bled in to expand the soundstage. The stereo effect is strong, but the weighting of the sound image will have you sit up straight.
The multi-channel release of "Souvenir" (high-res) gives you the option of separating the three channels to dedicated speakers (or playing it back in 5-channel mode).
 
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mep

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There is a neat picture of Frank Sinatra sitting in front of his stereo system which comprised a 3 track Ampex deck and 3 Ampex 350s I believe. It was probably an Ampex ad. It was a true 3 channel system and I bet it sounded great. I imagine the tapes that Frank was spinning were damn close to the master tapes.
 

jazdoc

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Wow! I never knew about 3-channel until this thread. Anyone with good links to history, etc? Kal, why wasn't this offered as a commercial product?? This is why I like WBF!
 

Ronm1

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^ The Living Stereo SACD reissues have the 3ch's when surround is selected.
 

Soundproof

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There is a neat picture of Frank Sinatra sitting in front of his stereo system which comprised a 3 track Ampex deck and 3 Ampex 350s I believe. It was probably an Ampex ad. It was a true 3 channel system and I bet it sounded great. I imagine the tapes that Frank was spinning were damn close to the master tapes.

Yes, prototype units were made up and distributed. The leading recording engineers and artists had 3-track machines at home, of course. There must be some 3-track tapes around, just waiting to be found in a garage sale!

I have a vintage system that creates a 3-channel playback from two phase opposite channels. Lots of engineers were dreaming of being able to show the public what was possible, but were locked in by people being satisfied with L/R, and by the prohibitive cost. Good quality tape, wide enough for proper 3-channel separation, required very expensive equipment - but the cost of making the tapes was the real show-stopper. Record executives looked at the numbers with vinyl - low production cost, instant production of the whole album, good overhead. With tape the first 2-channel releases were copied in 1:1 speeds and it was first with 4-track that they started really increasing the copying speeds, to get quicker turnaround on the dubbing park.

Vinyl simply had too many advantages going for it, as a distribution medium, but only had two channels. So bye, bye center channel. (I think the center channel speaker also had a tough time justifying its existence with low WAF...)
 
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Soundproof

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^ The Living Stereo SACD reissues have the 3ch's when surround is selected.

Check out the KoB release on SACD. If you set that up wrong, without center channel in 3-channel playback: no Miles.
 
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Johnny Vinyl

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Thank you Soundproof!
 

andromedaaudio

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I didnt know that either , as soundproof brought it up in another thread , very surprising / interesting indeed the 3 channel reproduction
Well maybe someone can revive taperecording as a "commercial thing again , i m sure audiophiles are willing to pay "a" price , see tape project .
I only heard it once , when peter mcgrath was showing the maxx 2 in rotterdam on a show , it sounded different ,but i wasnt as experienced as i am know to know what .
Its just not demonstrated with overhere as far as i know , by dealers / importers .
same with analogue mostly, which is mostly a sidething
I know speakermanufacturers will encourage the 3 channel replay:D

I am thinking of maybe buying a tapemachine myself someday, any list of music anywhere of whats available???

My expiriences with stereo on cd : a smooth operation , nice to impress but not to love on a daily basis.
stereo on good lp s : a more organic operation, more a touch and feel of the reproduction
 
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fas42

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Same here. ...Which month Frank? ...April myself.

Taurus people are very practical and hard workers with a lot of stamina (energy & endurance).
They are also down to earth! :b
May for me: it sounds like we here should all be joining hands for a jolly chorus on your behalf any time now, or is it all over and dusted? :b

Yes, down to earth to me, I'm a country boy, born and bred in what we call the outback; where it takes an hour's drive to pick up a bottle of milk. The stamina thing should be my go, but it has deserted me of late, unfortunately ...

Frank
 

NorthStar

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I'm singing right now! ...In stereo! :b

By the way Frank; Taurus people are "tres genereux". ...And "ils aiment beaucoup la vie."
And finally, "ils sont de tres bons amoureux." --> They make excellent lovers.
 
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fas42

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I'm singing right now! ...In stereo! :b

By the way Frank; Taurus people are "tres genereux". ...And "ils aiment beaucoup la vie."
And finally, "ils sont de tres bons amoureux." --> They make excellent lovers.
Well, count me in ... 1, 2, 3 ... :b

As regards this 3 channel conversation at this moment, fine if it works for some people, but I don't see the point: the centre image is so strong, so well defined when a system's in the zone that such an extra element would be completely redundant ...

Frank
 

Kal Rubinson

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^ The Living Stereo SACD reissues have the 3ch's when surround is selected.

Yes. If you want to hear a solid center, try one of the Heifetz concerto recordings. To hear what 3 channel can do for the wider soundstage, try the Reiner Scheherazade. Just switch between stereo (2channel) and multichannel (3channel).
 

fas42

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Frank, you are well aware that the center image (in two channel plain old stereo) is not a real thing ie in the motion of the air about your speakers don't you?

Its entirely a construct of your ear/brain interface mate AND everybody else's ear brain interface, and my boom box can get it to happen for $50.00


Tom
Then it comes down to what you mean by "real", Tom: what counts as far your hearing is concerned is what reaches your ears, and how that is interpreted. The simple analogy: a real person plays an acoustic guitar midway between your speakers, you close your eyes, and then either a recording of that person playing through the stereo setup, or the guitarist doing his thing, is switched at varying times. If you can't pick the difference, what's the problem?

Frank
 

NorthStar

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Yes. If you want to hear a solid center, try one of the Heifetz concerto recordings. To hear what 3 channel can do for the wider soundstage, try the Reiner Scheherazade. Just switch between stereo (2channel) and multichannel (3channel).

-.-
----
 

fas42

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Yes, it fails in every away you suggest!

You are kidding....no you are not. Just what I tried to say

---there is NO energy from the middle, only the two speakers spaced like 8 to 12 feet apart, and an ear/brain interface that pretty much refuses to "imagine" the guitar is in the cneter just because it is expected to be there. Thats why I listen for details and let the imagng fall where it may, without "helping" it along with my imagination (imagination is the ear/brain interface AND with someexpectation bias).

I know you don't get it Frank, and for your best interests, in my opinion don't ever get it, just continue on with your incredible ear.braininterface system.

Tom
I appreciate your compassion, Tom ... ;)

Don't worry, I get what normal hifi sounds like, I've listened to dozens and dozens of systems in showrooms, and people's homes, some costing many $100K, so I know exactly what I'm "missing". And, for some strange reason, I don't feel such a loss ... :b.

The point is, if you have to "try" in any way to make the sound "sound" good, using your imagination, alcohol, other "medicinals", whatever; then it ain't happening. The sound has to either work, be convincing, or it's just hifi. It's all pretty simple, really ...

Frank
 

Ronm1

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Since I don't have a separate 2ch room, its HT/2ch but its possible a number of you may have experienced this too! Friends, colleagues drop by for a listen. At some point they say, fine sound, but really impressed by the center chan. Ask them to stand up from the sweet spot and walk towards the center speaker, the expression on their face as they realize its not on is priceless
 
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Ronm1

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Yes. If you want to hear a solid center, try one of the Heifetz concerto recordings. To hear what 3 channel can do for the wider soundstage, try the Reiner Scheherazade. Just switch between stereo (2channel) and multichannel (3channel).

Kal, I have quite a few, picked up those I cared about early in the release cycle. Its been my experience to get this stuff early or suffer the consequences.
 

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